ICH!!!

If it isn't to late, and you're desperately looking for some advice, hopefully someone can help you out.

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jerms55555
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ICH!!!

Post by jerms55555 » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:45 pm

Alright I did a rookie mistake!!! Its been getting pretty cold at night and I performed a large water change with some cold water that was sitting outside for a couple of days. Last night I noticed that one of my L236 had some white spots on him....at first i thought it was air bubbles...so i went to sleep but it was killing me!!!!! so i took the whole tank apart and pulled him out and Im pretty sure its ICH! Now how should i handle this??Ok in this tank there are 7 zebras and 4 L236...I noticed 2 of the L236 have ich but im pretty positive that the zebras don not but its kind of hard to tell. Should I treat the tank with some Ick treatment and raise the temp? Or should I take out the infected ones and treat them by themselves? I believe this is the 2 day of the ich cycle. I have never treated pl*cos that had ICH, . Once i have treated some of my rams and they came out pretty much ok...but im not sure of the amount i should give to pl*cos tank(45gal)
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Last edited by jerms55555 on Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Caesars » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:18 pm

With Ich the problem is not so much the adults that are on the fish but the eggs which are in the water, hatch and go on the fish to eat. Eventually the whole fish becomes infected, including the gills and then the fish die. So in essence you want to stop the hatching process and let the adults die in their own good time.
If you are positive you caught it early I would suggest treating the two infected fish seperately. With the other fish I would do a water change, raise the temp to over 30C, add salt (which I know McEve doesn't agree with) and hope for the best. But I would keep monitoring, particularly tummies, as there its usually more obvious.
Of course other people may think differently

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Post by McEve » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:05 pm

It's easy to tell people that they should simply raise the temp as ich is supposed to die at 32C. But I know that if it was my fish, I would reach for the eSHa Exit immediately!

But never salt, you're right about that Caesars :D

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Post by jerms55555 » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:20 pm

Thanx Ceasars and mceve,
Im in the states so dont know about the esha product line too much. Do you know where I can get it at? Alsso so I should take out the infected?? I threw in another heater and have the temp at 90degrees Farenhiet. is that ok?

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Post by Caesars » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:43 pm

Jerms I think McEve is suggesting that you leave all of them in the tank and you treat the whole tank.

I don't particularly like using medication except if absolutely necessary so I would only treat the affected ones seperately.

I am not familiar with eSHa either - I haven't seen it in the UK. Here is a link to a recent discussion about Ich - I don't know if its much help

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... hlight=ich

maybe you could contact Lyretail and see if he has used any product available in the States successfully?

I know that here the shops use the Waterlife range on plecs - is this one available in the States?

Good luck!

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Post by McEve » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:53 pm

You can get the eSHa products from here: http://www.aquatics-online.co.uk/default.asp

It's a UK based online shop, and the eSHa product line is really good. It was first recommended on this site by Des. he hasen't been around for a while, but is breeding rare and exotic Discus as well as Zebras. I also believe he has kept Koi.

I was sceptical at first myself, but his advice always turned out sound, and he helped quite a few people on this board in the early days. Saved one of Rob's ladies too I believe ;)

When a fellow Norwegian breeder suddenly experienced mass death I sendt him my eSHa 2000. He lost only a couple after starting the medication, and since then all was well I believe.

I can safely reccomend the eSHa product line from experience, even though I'm against medications!

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Post by Caesars » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 pm

McEve wrote:... even though I'm against medications!
Heyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy - we agree on something!!!!! :lol: :wink:

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Post by Barbie » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:30 pm

Jerms 90 degrees will be fine. The ich goes through a process where the cysts drop off the fish then reswarm back up to attach. If you vacuum the substrate of the tank once or twice a day, you drastically reduce the number of cysts available to attach. I recommend a teaspoon of salt per gallon to further stress the ich cysts, along with the water changes. Don't move the fish out of the tank they're already in as this will just cause them more stress and leave ich parasites behind that will need treated for anyway. Basically you're trying to optimize the immune system of the fish and make it harder for the ich to get attached to them.

I rarely medicate my fish, but when I got home this summer to find 3 of my tanks covered in velvet, I treated with metronidazole. 400mg/10 gallons is the dosage I prefer and it's actually going to have increased efficacy at the higher temps like that. I personally add the salt dosage every day for 3 days, immediately following a 30% water change daily. This means the level is steadily increasing each day, but not doubling, due to the 30% freshwater you've filled back up with. This is not something I've just read about, but something I regularly do. It works very well. Make sure that on the 3rd day you keep an eye on the fish for stress and water retention. I usually recommend a second water change on that 3rd day, 6-12 hours after you add the salt.

The water changes, salt, and metronidazole (marketed as Flagyl by vets or hexamit in stores, also) can all be used safely in conjunction with each other and it's a very effective treatment that is usually used for discus. I've never lost a single fish using this method.

Hope that helps!

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Post by Tom2600 » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:21 am

I second Barbie's post. I can't recall the last time I used chemicals to treat Ich. Especially in a plec tank. Just crank up the temp. to 30C for 7-10 days, increase the oxygen and current and which your fish for any stress as a result of the temps. HOWEVER, with hypancistrus, they like the warmer/hotter temps anyway.

NEVER, NEVER add salt to a tank containing catfish, it can cause long term damage and/or death!

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Post by Caesars » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:32 am

Tom2600 wrote:NEVER, NEVER add salt to a tank containing catfish, it can cause long term damage and/or death!
Its interesting that on the salt issue people have so radically different views. Without contesting I would be interested to hear why salt is considered to have such adverse effects on catfish. Any references to articles etc welcome :D

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Post by INXS » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:36 am

Barbie,
are you saying metro works on Ick and Velvet? (I was not aware of this)

I have used Malachite green and Formalin in combination to fight Ick and Velvet on a few occasions. It was reccommended to me by a few importer/exporters and pro fish people.

This combination is what most of the Ick meds consist of.

I have used it on a number of plecos and other fish successfully though I did loose a few fish , unfortunatly I think they were goners anyway as they were mostly new imports and the travel probably caused the Ick breakout plus they probably had other ailments too.

Velvet is one of the nastiest things I have encountered and it can often be mistaken for Ick. I treated my fish with the same meds for that with mostly success, though with Velvet it is a slightly different treatment.

As others have stated, raising the temperature, adding salt, addet air and waterchanges are really helpful in combination with Malachite green and Formalin also. If using this med you will usually render the fish unable to spawn for 3-6 months but I would rather save the fish if it was me.

I have used salt and personaly can't say yes or no as I didn't really notice much difference.

As far as just raising the temperature and doing waterchanges , I have also tried this method and on most occasions the Ick did not go away - this is just my own personal experience. I did loose a few fish trying to go natural so now I wan't to make sure I save the fish and even if it makes them unable to spawn for a few months at least they stay alive.

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Post by McEve » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:39 am

Barbie wrote:The water changes, salt, and metronidazole (marketed as Flagyl by vets or hexamit in stores, also) can all be used safely in conjunction with each other
Tom2600 wrote:I second Barbie's post.
NEVER, NEVER add salt to a tank containing catfish, it can cause long term damage and/or death!
How does that fit Tom2600......? What do you mean?

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Post by Tom2600 » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:43 am

I have lost a good number of corys for seemingly no reason during my early fish keeping days. At the time I use to use Tonic salt as I was buying new fish etc and Ich was commonly being fought.

As a result of the cory deaths I asked a breeder of all types of fish, especially corys and plecs and he said salt badly affects catfish and you should never use it. I've always stuck to this without looking into the scientific reasons.

To be honest salt, as a tonic, just helps the osmotic balance of fish and therefore in theory should reduce the stress inccured to a fish already suffering due to an illness. Obviously higher levels of salt can and do literally kill some parasites and diseases but these strengths should only really be used as very short salt dips. I can therefore see no reason of using a tonic salt level in the water unless your tank and fish are in very poor living conditions.

I know many on planet catfish warn away from using salt, I'm sure many on there will be able to give the scientific reasons against using salt with catfish.

Cheers

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Post by Caesars » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:43 am

The reason I use salt on these occasions is that:
1. it adds electrolytes to the water and therefore makes it easier for the fish to breath thus reversing the effects that some of the medications have (for which we increase aeration)
2. Ich HATES it (it kills it)
3. It is a general disinfectant - in fact it works with the osmosis on the fish's body to fight disease and flush out parasites.

I would be interested to hear about the opposite views - maybe its a matter of chosing the less of two evils! I've not, to date, heard of any reasons why its so damaging though admittedly lots of people wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.

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Post by Tom2600 » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:49 am

McEve, see my above post, I openly admit I do not (have not bothered to find out) know the scientific reason behind not using salt with catfish.

Caesars, the addition of low level salt reduces the osmotic stress on fish, it will not "flush" out parasites or "fight" disease. as far as I am aware there is no reason why salt would help a fish to respire...other than the reduction of its stress levels. Which is an indirect benefit.

There is no reason to use salt. Use a proven chemical treatment.

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