Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh - I can't do this anymore...

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:03 am

Sinking deeper into the misadventures of breeding zebra plecos I seem to have mastered getting them aroused and fournicate - a lot.

Now the problem to solve is to actually manage to raise the offspring.

It seems like a weekly occurance to find wigglers in the tank that got kicked out - I have taken Algas advice of sitting on my hands to heart and embroided it on a gigantic banner next to the zebra tank.

When nearing the zebra tank one must now crawl under barbed wire, in the dark, while wearing soft and cushy animal slippers and not breath.

Last week I tried to rescue 5 wigglers that were kicked out and stuck them in a net breeder, after a waterchange they were dead and the snails (my most succesful breeding project ever) found themselves dining on caviar with fishtails that would make Beluga seem a bargain.

I know this will irritate people that are desperatly trying to get theirs to just breed and I worry that irate zebra pleco forum followers will show up at my dorstep to stone me to death.

I'm not worthy! With this rant and rave I shall go and pour another drink to wash away the sorrow. Then I will restock my tanks with guppies and snails to finally feel the joy of being a succesful breeder.

Better make it a double.

Thanks for listening

NetsuaiAngel · Post by **NetsuaiAngel** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:41 am

Stone you?

More like I'd offer to give you free massages for a year if you could make them do that more often!

alga · Post by **alga** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:14 pm

INXS- Its the animal slippers

Let's take this as a good news bad news situation...

Bad news,

1) The male kicks the eggs out
2) The eggs die

The good news:

1) The group is settled enough to consistently spawn
2) The eggs are actually fertile
3) The male "is" learning

Many of the major hurdles in getting these guys to go, you have overcome. If the kicking out of the eggs will be a continual thing all you need to do is come up with the best way to raise them. I'm sure many people will have proven ideas to isolate and raise the fry. All I would say is make sure they feel some current and that bubbles do not directly touch the eggs, it has a drying effect.

Keep the faith

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:54 pm

Well said alga.

You can't give up INXS. You've come much further than most people, and it's just the finish that needs to get in place. And you will get there! Just keep learning, observing what's happening, test water and check for topics concerning raising wrigglers or eggs.

You'll get there, don't give up

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:10 pm

ALga

The advice given above is all good.

I realise how frustrating this must be for you, but it is a case of identifying what is doing the damage.

Bad news,

1) The male kicks the eggs out
2) The eggs die

The good news:

1) The group is settled enough to consistently spawn
2) The eggs are actually fertile
3) The male "is" learning

The fact of the matter is, you have them breeding. The fish will not do this unless they feel the environment is correct, or close to correct.

The fry will quite often venture out of the cave on their own after 10 days or so. The fact that they are leaving early will be due to the inexperience of the male.

If they leave the cave with the yolk sac still visible they will probably not survive. This I have xexperienced and find mostly due to the substrate.

If they are removed and palced in a breeder there is no reason for them not to survice, so long as water parameters are good and the water is well aereated to ensure good circulation.

Try and steer way from big water changes, do a little, often. Make sure the water is pretty much up to temp, and do not pour it in near the fry trap.

Did the young look as if their yolk sacks were ruptured before they died?

Try not to give up INXS, just think how bored you would be after breeding your 75,000th guppy in 6 weeks time!!!!

rob

NetsuaiAngel · Post by **NetsuaiAngel** » Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:42 pm

INXS,

I'll still offer you a year's worth of massages.

I reread your post and realized that you said you have been finding wrigglers consistently. Are their yolk saks gone? Do you have java moss in your tank? This might help give them some place to wriggle to and hide while they're growing. alga has some great advice about searching the forums for growing the wrigglers up. I'm only assuming that if they're at the "wriggler" stage that they still have their yolk saks.

It's good to know your zebras are spawning and the eggs are getting fertile. Maybe catching the wrigglers could be too stressful for them. i'm not sure what to feed them but perhaps using a turkey baster or a dropper of some sort with the food you should feed them and just injecting the food in the areas you are finding the wrigglers. That way the food for them is concentrated in the areas they are hiding and you would be lessening the stress if you were trying to catch them and take their security away.

Just theorizing here. I'm no expert and I don't have the experience as some of our other members our there.

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 3:30 am

Thank you very much Alga, NetsuaiAngel, McEve and Rob,

There has been some breakthrough today - at the new restaurant I managed to get the icemachine hooked up so I can use tumblers for the scotch instead of just snifters.

About the disobedient fish:
When looking at Robs very detailed photos in daily development it seems that my wigglers are usually at the 5-8 day stage when they get kicked out.
Some of the yolksacks did in fact get ruptured and I have tried to suck them up outof the tank when they get evicted to place them in a netbreeder.

At that point the waterflow is coming through the trap with venturi attached and some airbubbles. The fry are now hatched but still with the eggsac attached - is it still dangerous to have bubbles blow across them?

They are not ready to hide or eat at this time.

I have to confess that I did do a good sized waterchange and dumped the water in from above near the fry - cold water that is and about 30% -

I also did prop the main cave that the alpha male uses up a fair amount.

One step at a time....

Rob - it is the 75 002th one thank you very much.

Thanks for all the encouragement!
It is much appreciated.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:44 pm

Hang in there INXS,

I know how frustrating it can be when things go wrong or not according to plan. I have had my fair share of problems too, fry and eggs getting kicked out of caves, spawns being eaten. As of yesterday I have a new type of problem a male has decided to leave his cave and spawn and set up home in another cave.

From my experience it would appear that spawning males have to learn how to do things. The instinct seems to be there but they still need a fair bit of practice and with time they get better at it. My most productive male was lousy to begin with but now he has developed excellent parental skills. I suspect males that have immediate success on their first attempt may well have already spawned previously in the wild, that's assuming that they are WCs. I've yet to hear of F1/CB spawns.

Propping your male's cave up at the front by about an inch should help with the escapee problem. However some males do not like this and will move home but generally speaking if they are well settled in the cave they don't mind. I would also do away with the net breeder and use an acrylic one instead, place an airstone in it for a bit of extra aeration. I wouldn't have a huge flow rate going through the trap as this could be stressing the fry out. If they are unable to settle on the floor of the trap then the flow is too much.

I am sure that with some fine tuning you will be more successful. The main thing though like everybody has said is that they are spawning, that in itself is the biggest hurdle to overcome.

Adam

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:22 pm

And if you're serious about being unable to deal with it anymore I've got plenty room for a few more zebbies!

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 3:26 pm

Netsuaiangel,
I'm up for those massages anytime

- I think that may be what is missing from the zebra succes.

Adam,
thanks, it helps to get this feedback as I have read the breeder register and feel like a dunce having had 6 spawns and only 2 fry

How many spawns have you had and how many fry?

It just seems like it was such a long wait to get them to finally spawn and now that they are spawning I'm extatic but yet there are no/very few offspring.

I wlll work on rectifying the problem, BTW the hormball is on another batch of eggs

Adam - I know you didn't really disclose the amount of zebras , etc, but I'm curious as to what you have set up?
Are you getting different males spawning within the same tank ? Is it a big tank? Or are there several colonies? And if so how big are they?
THanks

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:43 pm

McEve,
okej, Fleksnes levererar

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:50 pm

INXS wrote:McEve,
okej, Fleksnes levererar

ROFL - you know him?? he's legendary here in Norway, but I didn't think he was known anywhere else

I wouldn't trust him to deliver though, so I expect you keep working towards success

NetsuaiAngel · Post by **NetsuaiAngel** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:15 pm

INXS wrote:Netsuaiangel,
I'm up for those massages anytime - I think that may be what is missing from the zebra succes.

Hehe! Anytime you're visiting Vegas!

Sounds like you're getting a better handle on the babies now. I don't know if temp changes may stress them out, but if you could fill your tank in a different area, that may reduce the possible stress.

One factor at a time

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:40 am

McEve,
Fleksnes was the best - I remember he did a few things with Magnus o Brasse , I also seem to recall him having his own show.

NetsuaiAngel,
"anytime you're visiting Vegas! - a years worth of massage" ?? Say - you're not working at the "Bunnyfarm" are you??

I do feel a bit better because he seems to be spawning on a regular basis now and I will try all the tricks you guys have reccommended.

I did try to pour the water away from the wigglers but apparently not far enough.

The net breeder is out - I thinkAdam was right and they didn't get to relax at the bottom.

nightowl1350 · Post by **nightowl1350** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:17 am

Sorry to hear you have had problems with them hatching out. I for one wouldn't stone you

as I don't own any zebras I might just steal a few and try to raise them

(just kidding) Some of the fish I own the first few spawns were not great....angel males with very bad aim, but they did improve, so I hope your zebra male will improve to.