Fry Dying Out The Blue - What is it?

[andrewcoxon]

hi guys,

over the past few months iv noticed fry ranging from 6 weeks to 6 months keep dying out the blue. there isnt a mark on them and their bellies are full of food... iv been thinking what it is thats causing them to die but im at a loss....

iv checked all the obvious things like nitrate, ammonia and nitrite and it cant be that.

iv got my fry split over 3 tanks and the same thing happens... i lose 1 or 2 every couple of weeks and when i find them they look like healthy fry..

iv got a few ideas but would love your opinions and experiences.

Idea 1: iv just had a new boiler fitted to my house, could the new copper pipes be the problem?

Idea 2: iv just been reading the back of the "Hikari Carnivor Pellets" packet and it says it contains copper sulphate. these get fed to my adults and obviously the fry will be eating some too.

Idea 3: some kind of bloat.... iv noticed every fry i find dead has a full belly (not bloated to look at) but you can see a red/brown dark patch in their bellies which are full of food. perhaps the food is too protein rich?

thanks for your help.

andy

oops forgot to mentions the bateria build up theory.... some ppl think bacteria kills them however iv tried them in both bare bottom tanks and tanks with sand and iv noticed the same thing.

[Jamie24]

Sorry to hear this andrew? have you had this happen to any other fish or fry or just your L46?

i would say that it probably isnt the hikari pellets as i feed mine this and have had no problems at all. and surely the new pipes wont make a difference as this is the hot water system in your house, you dont put hot water from the tap into your aquariums do you? otherwise i would say this is the cause...


J

[andrewcoxon]

hi jamie,

well i mix some hot water from the tap in to bring the temp up to close to the tank temp. surley the amount of copper in the water is very minimal tho...?

[Jamie24]

i have never used hot water from the tap, it is not safe due to the copper and other trace metal elements that can be found in the water either from the heater/ boiler or pipework. although very small amounts this can have a bad effect on the water chemistry, and cause death like i would say has unfortunately happened in your case. i have also read this before in various articles and in 'abc books' of fish tank care and set up.

I always tell people never to use hot water straight from the tap, always used boiled water from a kettle and add it to a bucket of cold water to adjust the temperature to the temperature you want before adding it to the tank.

try doing a waterchange in all your tanks as soon as you can with cold tap water and adjust it using the method i said above, this will hopefull reduce the ammount of pollution in your tanks and hopefully not be too late to save some of the fish that are dieing.

this 'hot water poisoning' will only tends to seriously affect fry, very young fish or sensitive fish species or sick/ ill fish...

hope this helps sorry for your losses...

J

[andrewcoxon]

hi jamie,

i never knew that and il give it ago.

however, the tap water conditioner i use instantly neutralises all heavy metals...?

thanks

[Jamie24]

just what i have read and been brought up on and always been told.

i actually cant believe how many people do it without thinking, we dont make cups of tea or coffee from the hot water tap do we? no, because it can be harmfull, i guess people are either a bit naieve or just dont think (not having a go at you mate or anyone)

just that we are all here to help each other out and share tips and ways of doing things!

i hope you get positive results from doing this now, give it a week or so and im sure you will see a reduction or stop in these deaths..

Oh, and good luck with the Trop Idol! you will get my vote

just off to buy the march issue now!


J

[TwoTankAmin]

Just to provide some counterpoint. I have well water and the pipes in the house are vintage 1960/61. I have been doing water changes using tap water run at remp- ie a mix of hot and cold- for water changes for over 5 years now. I have had a total of 8-17 tanks running at all times during this period.

I have not noticed an unusual number of fish deaths nor fry losses. I have raised angels, killies, bettas, corys, bristlnose, zebras, danios, rosy barbs, blue eyed rainbows and farlowellas in my tap water using the hot and cold mix to get to the desired temp.

It may be that my pipes, being older, have long ago leached anything they might or were made somewhat differently back then.

In the very early days of fishkeeping I used the cold only heat the water on the stove method. One thing about boiling water, the process basically takes out the kh. The more stove heated water one uses, the lower the resultant kh. This can only become a problem when the overall kh of the replacement water gets down in the 2dg (about 35 ppm) or less range as it can lead to a pH drop/crash. You can always set up a holding container using cold water, allow it to sit over night so it rises to the ambient house temp and then drop a big aquarium heater and a powerhead into the container and raise the temp that way rather than using stove heater water.

I do not know if a new boiler might have something in it that over time rinses out fairly fast and you are getting some contamination that will stop. It might be that in making the connections the use of flux and other soldering related chemicals left behind some residue which is flushing out through the water system.

It is possible that if you are on a municipal water system there has been some change in the chemical composition of the water, The only way to know the answer to that is to contact the water company.

If you truly believe you have a water/plumbing issue, one solution is to use RO water. That way you will be able to have 100% control of exactly what is in the water.

There is also the possibility of a genetic weakness being passed on by one of the spawning adults. If you have multiple spawning males and females it could be that one specific fish is at fault.

The last thing I wonder about, if their bellies look to be very full, could they be constipated? Maybe you need to get more veggies into their diet. I use Hikari foods but not the carnivore pellets. I use the Sinking Wafers which dont list copper sulfate in the ingredients- they do list ferrous, magnesium, zinc, manganese and cobalt sulfates in the ingredients. One thing I have done for sveral years now is to feed all of my fish, including zebras of all sizes and ages, once a week on a spirulina with garlic flake. Overall I have noticed a reduced loss rate across all my tanks since I began using this food.

[crazie.eddie]

The house I live in is about 30 years old. I mix hot/cold for water changes in my 125 gallon tank. My 125 gallon tank has snail issues, though my clown loaches keep them in check. If there were copper issues in hot water, I would have no snail issues. FYI, copper KILLS snails.

[Line]

Hello

Old copper pipes are usually of no problem. Only very new ones.

I dont know how to explain it - but after a while calcium/minerals whatever covers the inside of the pipes and so protect the water from the copper. You know - the same way that urge you to clean the watertaps.

Best regards
Line

[Zebrapl3co]

Yes, I would definately suspect that is was new copper pipes. I've heard of new copper pipe issues quite often. But that usually result in shirmp deaths as shrimps are very sensitive to copper. This is the first time I heard about fish death due to new copper though.

[dave]

Well here goes

If you search on copper, it seems mcEve lost a lot of fish following the installation of new copper pipes, and looking at the thread you started on pleco fanatics, or maybe here, other people have only lost shrimp.

Shrimp are a bit more sensitive to Copper.

A lot depends on the PH of the water coming out the tap, take lead Pb for instance, the water in London is hard and alkaline, and there are still lots of Lead Pipes about, but very few traces of Lead in peoples blood, go to a soft water area where the water is acidic the results are completely different.

Treating for heavy metals, really depends on Ph, some may be soluble in acidic water and insoluble in alkaline water and vice versa, it is the solubility that causes the problem, and as Ph's fluctuate in aquaria, the only way to solve the problem is use an HMA filter.

New copper is a problem util the surface has reacted to create an impervious coat.

Take care

Dave

[dave]

Just an example, Aluminium which has been linked to Alzheimers disease, and many of us have pans made out of this, is soluble to Alakalis but not Acids, so when boiling your vegetables best to know which produce alkaline or acidic water.

Take care

Dave

[Jo's Zebs]

Think I am going to buy a steamer for my veg now

[TDI-line]

After reading these very helpful posts, and after mixing hot and cold water for my water changes (tut tut), i've invested in a 300 litre tank just for prepared water to feed my tanks. The tank will be situated in my garage where it will be pumped to any tank for a water change.

Sometimes it takes a few people to show us the basics again.

Thank you.