BULLDOG Fry- Genetic Or Environmental

[McEve]

i have been thinking about it and fish like any other animal with feelings will know that it hurts to bump against a wall but if young enough were the bone or stiff internals that make the form of a fish havent developed yet then it would be susceptable to "forming".

That's what I was wondering too...

im thinking the way the male "rolls" the eggs has more to do with it than one might think or even the "wiggler" stage itself.

I think there's something here too...Or maybe not, I've had artificilly raised eggs into fry and adulthood without this damage. I lost 70% of them, but the survivors didn't have a snub I've had much better survival rate when leaving the fry.

maybe its the water current forcing itself into the cave and pushing the wigglers up against the back wall or what about cave size?

I can't see this being the case, as I have males that prefer caves facing in all different directions relevant to the current. I also have large caves and small caves. Mind you, I've only got one snubnose, and that was a female which didn't show it until she was 15 months old.

I just have a very hard time finding a common enviromental factor... Why jsut a few of them and not all if it's enviromental... that's what keeps bugging me.

Then again, why one and not all

I'm still on to this one as you can see

[ZebMan]

I have a quick question (it may have been already been answered). Are there any F0 Zebras with snub nose?

[John]

I don't think so, well at least i have never seen one or heard of one.

[McEve]

There is a record of on Ancistrus F0 with a bullnose. I think there's a picture of it somewhere in this thread. A starlight if I remember correctly.

[stanchung]

I read with interest this bulldog phenomena. There's new strains of Discus that are bred to exhibit this shortening of the spine. This is considered a deformity and disease by some experts[Andrew Soh]. Lordosis or ~scoliosis.

Apparently it's not genetic but some pathogen attacking the spine and preventing the growth- making it a standing egg shape fish. A bit like ballooning fishes. [some say it's a chemical treatment after the eggs are fertilized]

Andrew Soh recommends treating the fish with an anti biotic we've never used before in our hatchery/tanks [min 7 days] then keeping the fish in a hospital tank with propriety copper sulphate long term- 1 month period with less feeding. WC with redose of Copper sulphate.

This will not make the fish's spine grow back but it will prevent the offspring's of these fishes from getting it as well. I'm just wondering if copper sulphate is safe for our zebras?

[McEve]

This will not make the fish's spine grow back but it will prevent the offspring's of these fishes from getting it as well. I'm just wondering if copper sulphate is safe for our zebras?

Interesting with a new theory of why this is happening!

About copper sulphate:

The following chemicals can be dangerous; to say the least, if applied incorrectly and should only be used by experienced aquarium hobbyists. A very thin line separates effective treatment levels from overdoses that will kill the fish.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/chelmon/Chemicals.htm

Sounds pretty risky, you have to know what you're doing if you're going this way

[stanchung]

Thanks McEve for the link. It states CuSO4 is particularly toxic at low alkalinity levels. I presume this to be pH 7>8+.

Not sure I want to do this test on my zebras but perhaps on the discus.

Will keep you guys posted if I do decide to do a prophylactic treatment on my tanks. I bought hi-body discus that grew up to look like bulldog discus. Just afriad it will affect the whole fish room as I use the same nets.

[John]

Read this interesting thread on the german L46 site:

http://www.forum.l46.de/viewtopic.php?t=2885

It's about F1 bulldog fry which was old enough to reproduce, 2 of those bulldog's produced 100% healthy fry.

[Zebrapl3co]

I think you can rule out the copper sulphate theory. My breeding tank have cherry shrimps in it. If there are any high amount of copper sulphate, the cherry shrimps would be the first to go.
My opinion is the square caves you guys made for them to spawn in. The fry will definately rub against the edges.
I have since tried using round caves, but unfortunately, they don't like round caves. When I take away all the square caves, they prefer digging under the cave than go into it. Really strange.

[Line]

Try to make them halfround They love them like that. Like my Avatar.

Best regards
Line

[dave]

Well my 201's have started breeding in terracotta caves, the back being round, 2 fish recovered from the tank. both snub nose.

When my L46 started breeding 2 years ago found 2 fish in the tank, 1 snub nose one with deformed pectoral fin, this was in square caves.

Both instances the parents were allowed to care for the fish and release them naturally.

I have since raised 137 L46 artificially, ie removing the eggs or fry at an early stage with no deformities.

While statistically it is such a small sample and conclusions cannot be made, is it coincidence that the the first broods from both Hypancistrus show 100% deformity and nothing after.

I doubt it's genetic.

Take care

Dave

[aznb0i]

This discussion:

http://www.l46-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t ... r+schnauze

is not very juicy and rather uninteresting - no new perceptions.

And the discussion at L-Welse com:

http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4289

contains the same theories discussed here in this forum.
Do wild caught Hypancistrus have bull heads? - Nobody has seen a wild caught fish with bullhead.

Reasons? No answer.

When does the bull head symptom occur? At larvae or at young normal fish? - at young, normal fish, not yet with larvae.

Water parameters, Nitrate, Nitrit, Ammonia, ...? No contenting answer

Bacteria on glass of breeding tank without gravel? No answer

Better results if the fry is raised in tanks with sand on the bottom? Some tell, they have better results since they raise fry in tanks with sand.

Food? Vitamins? Trace elements? No answer

Is the "bull head symtom" a result of a genetic defect or a result of husbandary? No contenting answer, if it´s a rezessive hereditary disease, fishermen should also catch some fish with defect in South America and at least some should rarely be imported.

Do Hypancistrus have bullheads in their habitat, too, and if yes, in which case they are handicapped in comparison to normal young fish, so that they do not grow up to maturity? - Would be interesting to examine, but how?

Bull head symtom also does appear at Loricariinae, e.g. Loricaria simillima - look at this picture from user Michael: http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5697



Well, if you want a translation word by word, tell it - and give some time to me to do so

here it is translated in english

http://babelfish.yahoo.com/translate_ur ... =yfp-t-501


here is another good forum that is translated http://66.196.80.202/babelfish/translat ... .l46.de%2f

[g-g]

not the prettiest looking zebra in my opinion. but never the less, a life is a life.

[Samantha]

I was going to purchase two F1 zebra plecos but when I looked at them they seemed to have a mild case of snub nose. I have two wild caught zebras and have set up a 75 gallon species tank just for them with the hopes of getting more and breeding them. Can everyone confirm that my initial diagnosis of snub nose was correct and that I did the right thing in passing on them.

[fasttalon94]

Some things to think about, I am leaning towards it being environmentally related and here is why...
The aquarium industry is full of "alterations" for lack of better words. For example, long fined species, parrot cichlid fish, "designer" goldfish etc. These particular fish tend to have consecutive spawns yielding the same "mutation." This is not something that we commonly see in multiple spawnings of L046. The other reason why is that many of the reports I have read come from amateur spawners. Very rarely does a professional breeder that carries out large, scheduled water changes and has ideal water conditions report of more than the rare case of snub-nose. This is not usually the case for an amateur breeder at home.

I have done much reading on them and without a doubt there is much speculation on what causes this but allow me to share my experiences....



EXPERIENCES:
I have 1 40B, bare bottom, no lighting to speak of, with random assortment of caves and lots of Mopani driftwood. I keep the tank at 84*F and perform weekly 50% water changes reducing the temp around 4*F with the new water. I use a mixture of tap(250tds) and RODI water to reach a mixture of a *fairly* consistent 150TDS in the tank. My group consists of 2 males that I acquired locally and several females acquired from a breeder on the other side of the country (California.) Although I do not know that my males and females are unrelated its a safe bet to assume they are, and in complete transparency the lineage of these fish in completely unknown. The females were sold/advertised as F1 but I cannot confirm that. (The fish's serial #'s are very hard to read...lol)

My 1st spawn yielded only 1 fry of which I do not recall if it was snub or not, It was a long time ago and I had not yet known about the issue. Their next 2 spawns yielded almost 100% snub noses. These spawn were very close together so I assume they were from 2 different females. During this time I admittedly didn't pay attention to their water parameters and was inconsistent with the amount of water and the temperature of the water I was using during weekly water changes. All fry were raised by the same father with no artificial hatching methods used.

My 3rd (actually 4th) spawn took place under a more watchful eye and weekly 50% water changes keeping TDS @150 and new water temp to 80* (allowing the heater to bring the temp back to 84*F in main tank.) Same father raised the fry and the successful rearing of 7 fry with no snub noses to speak of.




THOUGHTS:
Could my large batch of snub-noses have been water quality/parameter swing related? High phosphates in the water from feedings? 1st time parenting causing the deformity? Who knows. Unfortunately for all of us the only constant in this little experiment of mine were the diet and father, these have never changed. Certainly we have several factors here including many metrics of water parameters, and the females providing the eggs.

What could be interesting is if we as a community keep a watchful eye on when exactly these mutations tend to happen, and then we can narrow it down from there. For me the mutations happened only during the 1st few spawns. It seems to me that this is when most people are getting large amounts (or more than just the random case) of the snub-nose.

Currently, for whatever reason, I had a male blow out and entire batch of 16 eggs! It might be that I have 3 females all ready to spawn right now and he is not able to multitask. I have collected these eggs and put them into a completely different tank with similar water parameters as the breeding tank and am now monitoring their progress. This will be my 1st attempt at artificially raising L46 eggs and if there are any mutations I will report back and then we can exclude "parental care" from the list of possibles. Unfortunately this spawn was 3 days ago and the eggs are still very young but I have only had 2 die off on me and was able to remove them easily. (I am actually keeping several small alder pinecones in with the eggs as this is said to help minimize fungus) Again, many different factors in this trial but if I get any snub noses we can at least exclude parental care from our list as these eggs were taken only a few hours after being laid.