A sad story....

tmh0324 · Post by **tmh0324** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:37 am

Today, I am here to tell you guys a true story…a sad story…

One day, in “PRIVATE Sales and Wants”, a seller has some young zebbies for sale…

I am a newbie here but very excited that I got a chance to obtain some to start breeding my first zebs.

Seller says $115/pc plus 3% paypal fee for the total…
I bought 6 of them…plus the UPS next day air shipping.
So, $690 + $85(UPS shipping) + $23.25(PayPal 3%) = $798.25.

Then, fish ship on Monday for Tuesday early morning delivery.
See picture below…

You can see the time frame from shipping to delivery.
Takes about 12 Hours total…

When I got the box, of course, the first thing is to open it and see my lovely zebbies…

But, sadly, I see

From the pictures above, you can see how fast I file a DOA and take several pictures and email to him, I even take a MOV file with my digital camera…of course I call seller immediately, too….He’s in the meeting at that time and a lady takes the message for him…

By the way, you can see the packing…
The seller put the heat pack directly on the fish bag, and cover with insulation stuff…the water is HOT when I pick it up to take a look at that time!

Also, see what kind of bag that the seller use to pack the fish….Oh my God…what can I say…

I ask for refund and he asks me ship the fish back to him and the refund will not include both shipping cost…

At that time, I am afraid that I won’t get anything back….so I don’t argue with him at all…and I ship the original box with unopened bag back to him during lunch break right away…just try to do my best to avoid any excuse that he could refuse to do the refund….

I send it back via USPS Priority mail with Delivery Confirmation number on it which cost me $13.80…

Finally, I got my refund back at $677.46 only…

I total lost (waste) $134.59 for nothing…

I email the seller that I hope he can do full refund for $798.25 and I just send him the UPS shipping cost with 3% extra included to avoid 3% from $798.25.
By doing this way, I don’t need to pay 3% twice for nothing….one for $798.25 and one for $698 that he send back to me as a payment…
I just try to lower down my loss but he just doesn’t care about that at all, no response from this request and do the refund directly….(You may think at least I got something back, right…sigh.)

Conclusion:
Do I need to take any responsibility?
Of course both of us don’t want to see this happen…
The fish are innocent…
But when things happen…we need to face it, right?
We need to be reasonable and fair, right?

I think I do my best for every step as a buyer, the fish die because of the poor packing skill by the seller…(never put a heat pack directly on the fish bag…)

Next day air shipping only takes 12 hours…and he failed, but I got to pay for his mistake.

I think the only mistake I make is buying fish from someone without asking all the details…(He ask me to send the payment ASAP, otherwise I may not get them…)

Anyhow, it is a truly sad story….

I just want to let you guys know and learn from my experience….
This is the first time I buy expensive fish here and be scared…from both fish and seller….

Until I transfer the money back to my bank account, then I could share my experience with you guys with less fear……

By the way, don’t try to breed small zebbies (less then 1”) if you are not an expert, I think they are very very easy to die at this age(size), because they look really really tiny and skinny…

I’d better pay more to get the bigger ones than taking this kind of risk.

Just some suggestions and thoughts from my heart…..I lose anyway, but hope newcomers won’t have the same situation like I do.
And please wish me luck when I try to get some zebs next time.

Thank you guys…

polit67 · Post by **polit67** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:21 pm

wow ziplocks for shipping!!!what a waste of zebras. sorry for your loss of shipping fees. whoever shipped these shouldnt be shipping fish!!!!

Scott

tmh0324 · Post by **tmh0324** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:47 pm

Yeah....

If breeders really care about their fish....it should never happen like that...

You can see a flat bag can't hold much space for air......

Isn't it a common sense?

cichlid_baby · Post by **cichlid_baby** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:43 pm

Those zebras may have died from either too much heat exposure from the heat packs which I highly doubt... or.. died from suffocation due to the lack of oxygen... but I would say more likely a combination of both, if not then definately from lack of dissolved oxygen. We should all know that with raised water temps, you get raised metabolism, raised breathing rates, and higher waste production. Also warmer water has less capacity to hold dissolved oxygen.

From looking at those photos, it looks like there was no attempt to bag any air or oxygen along with the fish bags to allow for any kind of gas exchange during transit. Normal bagging procedures would dictate approximately 1/3 volume of water and 2/3 volume of air or pure oxygen. You can safely deviate from this measure up to 50/50 in some cases. Also, all shipments should be encased in an styro insulated and corrugated box with proper labeling to ensure proper handling by the carriers. Quilt batting is NOT the same as a styro box. There are no insulating properties with poly-fil or quilt batting material. When was the last time someone had a professional come to their house to add more batting to your attic?

As far as the use of heat packs, there is a misconception that the heat pack is there to heat the water and keep it warm. This is somewhat of mis-information.. the heat packs are there to keep the internal air temp of the box stable (from getting too cold) which should in turn keep the bagged water from cooling off too much during transit. The heat packs are not there to heat the water. Now all of this goes out the window when you don't use a properly sealed and insulated box. Think of it this way.. it doesn't matter if you use 10 heat packs if you are going to simply place them and your bag of fishes in an open air laundry type basket with nothing to shelter them from the outside temperatures. In this scenario the heat packs will be of no use to you. Now we should all be aware that there are some lethal levels of water temperature on both extremes and this can very a bit from fish to fish. Zebras are a little more tolerable of warmer temps then they are of colder temps which is one reason why I lean away from the theory that the heat packs may have "overheated" your fishes. It would be very difficult for a single heat pack to heat that amount of water to such a temp that it would be fatal to your fishes even with direct contact. I have tried this experiment several times in mock packages just to see for myself although not in such confined spaces as you have in your pictures. So it may be remotely possible.

Now.. accidents can and do happen in this business of shipping fishes. It is very stressful on the fishes in general. We as shippers have no control over what happens once the fishes leave our possession. All that we as shippers can do is use our best judgement when packing and preparing fishes for transit. Try to follow industry standards, and learn from our mistakes. We go about shipping fishes with our best intentions, follow all the guidelines, and even so, sometimes things still happen for whatever reason.

In this case here, it simply looks like inexperience and insufficient supplies for the task at hand.

In the future.. I do agree that shipping very small babies less than an inch is too much of a risk. If I were the seller.. I would give them another month or two of growth before subjecting them to the stress of shipping. Not only that.. I would take extra special care not to cause drastic temperature changes as their small bodies can not cope with it as well.

It is very sad indeed that this happened to you, but do remember that you are not the only one "out" anything with this tragic event. Somewhere in zebra heaven, there are a few lost souls who will never know what it feels like to be a big zebra in a small tank.

tmh0324 · Post by **tmh0324** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:55 pm

Thanks for your reply and opinion, cichlid_baby.

I think the reason they die may be both running out of air and heat.
Heat pack could kill the fish in the box if it directly attach with the bag.
I have this kind of experience before so I can tell...
When a shippment got DOA...
Different symptons can show different reasons....

And the thing I feel disappointed is the seller's attitude.
If he could show at least he's trying to reduce the loss...
I 'd appreciate that doesn't matter why it happened...

I am lucky because originally I thought I will go get the box after work from UPS station.
But I got a chance to receive it at my working place that I don't need to let the box sit in the UPS station whole day...and I ask him to ship to my working place instead...
Otherwise...I guess I will never get any penny back.

I know fish sometimes die....for different reasons....
If I am selling fish and my mistake cause DOA, I will take the responsibility...either refund or reship it at my own cost.
If Buyer and seller both do right things but it still happen, half half or see what agreement they have.
If buyer's problem, then buyer need to take the responsibility...
But I think the most important thing is the attitude.
No one is perfect, everyone keep making mistakes in the whole life.
But we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better next time.

If the attitude is bad, even someone is right, people will think he or she is wrong...
Without saying when someone did the wrong thing with bad attitude, that just makes he or she even worse......

I think I talk too much....

Just want to let other people know and learn from my case and avoid the similar situation...

duonri · Post by **duonri** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:15 pm

Sorry for the loss - "Breathing bag" should have been used !

eklikewhoa · Post by **eklikewhoa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:00 am

i had a similar problem but in the end i never recieved the fish. i even decided to accept half the responsibilty and lost but even then the seller blew me off. finally i disputed it with my cc company and then the seller decides to accept the half back price but by then my cc had already issued a full refund. from the get go the seller didnt have the fish in his possesion and was just making some extra money selling for a breeder. got the run around for a few days and then the fish got shipped to who knows where. i called the shipper and he immediately called me a thief and since he didnt ship the fish signature release the courier dropped them off somewhere to be lost.

its sad when there's something to do with these beautiful fish there are bad things that follow. saddens me to see them in the ziploc bag and to see that the bag is inflated it could have been co2 coming from the packager who blew in it.

sorry for you loss and hope for the best. all my problems have been a major learning experience.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:11 am

eklikewhoa wrote:i had a similar problem but in the end i never recieved the fish.

From a different seller and nothing ever showed up. Not really similar. Did your seller have any prior positive feedback at this site?

eklikewhoa · Post by **eklikewhoa** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:50 am

Pete wrote:
eklikewhoa wrote:i had a similar problem but in the end i never recieved the fish.
From a different seller and nothing ever showed up. Not really similar. Did your seller have any prior positive feedback at this site?

both of us didnt get to enjoy the zebra plecos and was in direct relation to the fact that the seller was not exp in shipping. we both lost the zebras, his died in transit to unexperience and i never recieved mine due to unexperience.

i bought mine off of aquabid and the seller had three positive feedbacks and there was no knowledge of him here. the seller was just some lfs in MI and from what i gathered from emails the seller was selling for a breeder so the fish was never really in the possesion of the seller.

i agree to all of this statement...

I know fish sometimes die....for different reasons....
If I am selling fish and my mistake cause DOA, I will take the responsibility...either refund or reship it at my own cost.
If Buyer and seller both do right things but it still happen, half half or see what agreement they have.
If buyer's problem, then buyer need to take the responsibility...
But I think the most important thing is the attitude.
No one is perfect, everyone keep making mistakes in the whole life.
But we learn from our mistakes and try to make things better next time.

the seller in my situation called me a thief which is understandable if i looked at it through his point of view but then again i am not the one who shipped that much money worth of fish without making sure it would make it. the seller had a poor attitude about it all from the get go and was real bad with communication. i was really easy going on this deal cause i see where it went wrong and all i wanted was for the seller to make right of it all. after trying everything i ended up offering to accept half the loss on the fish. even then the seller had poor communication and attitude so i stopped waiting for him to reply and took it upon myself to take care of the situation. i initially felt his concern about the loss cause i was out the money and he was out the fish so i offered the split loss but in the end he continued to call me a scammer. i called my cc company after several emails asking if he really accepted the half loss and was going to refund half my money but he never replied so i went ahead and made the claim.

after the claim was made i washed my hands of the matter and left it to cc to deal with. then thats when the seller finally contacted me stating he sent a check but it was too late. the check was never cashed and the seller continues to harass me with name calling.

the whole situation has made me leary about buying fish over the net or mail order. i have had great exp with shipping/buying and selling items with other forums and items and with much more money involved but this one thing was just bad. if the seller would have been more open minded and professional about it i think it would have been fine as i am open minded as well but instead the seller flipped.

on other forums i am a supporting member of with superb feedback if i might add, there is a grading or feedback system where you can just look up the member/seller and it will show you their feedback history wether it be good or bad and that allows you to make judgement on wether to do business with them or not but then again the forum is about more readily availble stuff. also regardless of the feedback situation if the person rarely does business or never post on the forums how would you know who's who? like the previous situation on aquabid with the seller that passed away with great feedback. that name was trusted but the user on the other end had other intentions with that name and took advantage of the mislead.

october004 · Post by **october004** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:58 pm

well....this is interesting...

I am the seller that sent those zebs. First of all let me start from the top.
Number one the shipping method. I sent those fish the same way I sent out 20 others the same day the same time the same way except for 2 heat packs. The others made it minus 3 that had gotten pinched in a corner. The temp of the water was 86 degrees and perfect. Let me make something clear here...I have been shipping baby zebs for a long time and have never had a problem until this case. I have had fish end up in a box for 36 hours and still live. I find it curious since he wants to start on me about this let me ask a few questions...

First, he emails me and wants zebs I told him to pay in advance because I went through 30 zebs in a day and if he wanted them it is first come first serve. He pays the money and wants them to arrive on saturday or sunday. (Let me just express at this point he can not have a high knowledge of shipping, their is few if any that will friday for saturday ship and you cannot ship for sunday) I advise of this and he says to send them to his work than home than another address because he changed jobs or something so the address changes several times than he gives me one and I ship to him. I ship out the packs and than my wife takes a message while I was in a meeting and so I contacted him when I got out to find out what I could do. Also I looked at the pics and in some they look normal and others they look like they were just stuck on the bag and so I requested more pics and for him to mail the babies back. (I guess I should've explained that all I needed were the babies and not everything back) He sent everything back while the other guy put them in the bag in an envelope and sent them for the fraction of the cost. Then without hesistation he tells me he wants his money back no replacements saying he didnt realize they were so small and that he didnt think he could take care of them. (also let me add the comment about breeding baby zebs what is that you can't breed baby zebs) So after I make him a good deal on expensive fish...if you look I have been doing this for roughly 9 months without a dilema or problem. I have a guy that I ship fish to who suddenly has an entire box of fish die, who swears the water was hot or the oxygen ran out but yet he doesnt even know fish don't ship on sunday, who at the first opportunity doesn't want replacements he wants his money back...I am sorry and I don't want to start a mud throwing contest but this sounds like a case of buyers remorse. I have more than one reference from nj to hawaii that I have sent fish to some 3 times and never had an issue and than I have one guy that is now completely trying to kill my reputation because in my opinion he didn't know what he was getting. And he didn't understand why I won't refund shipping.

I cannot believe how fast people turn on people. This is crazy. He paid for fish he got fish whether they truly overheated or their heads got "accidently" squeezed by the bag or other things he stands as the first and last to have this happened to because I am going to start to drill people I sell fish to to see if they can handle it. And let me say this all of you that are throwing your opinions in have you ever tried shipping this way? I know there was a comment about the box unless changed I know of several major fish sellers that ship the same way. This just trips me out that after doing my best to be professional and smart about all of this I have people coming out of the woodwork to jump on with this guy. Let me ask you a question what do you think this did for me? The other guy that lost 3 I am shiping those to him today. Do you think that I just have money rolling through my fingers? Are you crazy? My God people get a realistic perspective on this thing. I didn't scam anybody and I resent the fact that he says he was scared...that is a load check my feedback on this site. Not Aquabid not ebay not even plecofanatics but this site and see my references see what people have gotten see that nobody has gotten screwed before and than after you have done that than maybe you should express your opinion but until than don't believe everything you hear.

october004 · Post by **october004** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:03 pm

Also let me throw in there for the upright bag comment...They were upright and not flat. You know what this whole thing just trips me out I can't believe it you guys have to much time on your hands...

tmh0324 · Post by **tmh0324** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:46 pm

The pictures say it all...
The truth is truth.
Focus on the truth.

I don't want a replacement because
1.seller's packing method is poor.
2. zebbies' death let me hesitate...
So, I ask for refund not replacement.
Wouldn't you afraid that the same thing may happen again when you see the packing method?

Originally I hope to receive it during the weekend because of the same reason why I ask seller ship to my working place.
I hope to get it ASAP to prevent any accident.
I work Mon-Fri...ask for weekend delivery is strange?
And seller suggest me don't do weekend delivery...
So I try my best to receive it---at my working place...

The fish are DOA, the seller makes me feel like it is my fault?!?!...
It doesn't matter that is seller's first time or not...
I didn't say the seller is a scammer.
The seller really got the fish and really ship them out.
It is just about the attitude when things don't go smoothly...

The truth is truth...
Actions speak louder than words.

tmh0324 · Post by **tmh0324** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:58 pm

By the way,

These 5 pictures are the same pictures that I sent to the seller.
Will you guys think the fish "look normal"?

And only two addresses have been provided...
One is my home address and the other one is my working address.

I am not the one who pack the fish...I just receive it and open the box immediately and see DOA...anything to do with the address?

Sophistry.

cichlid_baby · Post by **cichlid_baby** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:05 pm

October004... Please do not take this post personally...

I've read your response.. I wonder if I am the one you are referring to about coming out of the woodwork? My post was meant to be informative on the standards of shipping practices in the aquarium industry. You can reference this material simply by googling it or calling one of the many fish farms that ships out thousands of boxes every year.

If you feel this is an attack on you then I don't know how to be of any help to you or this forum. My aim was to help you prevent more occurences like this in the future. From the looks of it, many of the DOA's you mentioned could have been prevented especially the ones caught in the corners. If you had used standard poly bags, by double or triple bagging and inverting one bag upon the other, you would have eliminated much of the risk associated with having corners in bags where little fish can sometimes get caught. Not only that, the bag itself would have given you much more room to work with and thus allowing you to safely bag some good quantity of air if you didn't have access to oxygen. Thirdly, it would have allowed for you place the bag into the box lying on its side rather than standing up which we all know is better for shipping as it affords more surface area for gas exchanges, and allows for more swimming space for the fishes which limits chances of having punctures caused by the fins/spines of certain fishes. Using ziplock bags does not afford you any of these benefits and from the pictures there certainly was no air in the bag even with it standing upright. Ziplock bags are not recommended as there is a chance that the ziplock could partially become undone and what would we have then? Punctures may not have been an issue for the size fishes that you were sending but it is something for you to keep in mind for future reference. As far has the heat packs go and overheating.. I would venture that much of it depends on the quantity of water that was bagged, the amount of actual contact, and the insulation properties of the box as to whether or not it would even be able to become overheated. Again.. I highly doubt that overheating is the case here unless of course the quantity of bagged water was just so miniscule that it couldn't serve as a buffer to keep it's own temperature.

My main point here is that as a consumer and a shipper myself, I have learned many things throughout the years of receiving and shipping live fishes. I have lost my share of fishes which I've ordered due to others careless shipping practices. I have also lost some fishes due my own inexperience early on. I have even lost fishes when all the T's are crossed and I's are dotted and no one is to blame. It just happens. Now.. you may have had some success doing things the way you've done them here in the past, but I would say.. maybe you've gotten very lucky.. and eventually things will catch up with you. We as shippers have some level of control over the relative security of our shipments and in this business would be best served if we acknowlegded this and did what we could within our power to assure the best chance for safe arrival of our beloved fishes. This will instill confidence in your customers to continue to do business with you. If you need assistance in getting all the necessary supplies such as bags, insulated boxes, oxygen, etc.. just let me know and I will try to point you in the right direction. Some of this stuff can be obtained for free locally in your own area.

Now on the issue of customer service and your reputation... whether or not or how you choose to deal with your customers before and after the sale is ultimately up to you as a business person. Of course much of that depends on the communication you've had prior to the sale including any agreement you might have made pertaining to DOA's or not or any specifics to your return policy. This part is entirely up to you. If you choose not to offer or honor any such policy if any.. that is entirely within your rights as a seller as long as you make it clear to the buyer prior to the sale or shipment.

Now.. with all that said.. if you've learned anything from my posts or your recent shipping experience, and can see where you could have been more pro-active rather than re-active for the future... in other words... being able to admit where you could have done better in certain areas... and implement improvements or changes. That in itself will do wonders for your reputation.. no questions about it. We think you have some very nice fishes and are doing a great job of helping us sustain this hobby.

One last note... I don't think anyone here is saying that you are some type of scam artist and out to get people. That is certainly NOT what I am saying.

october004 · Post by **october004** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:26 pm

Let me say this...I have received several fish from all over the us that have used the very same packaging method I did and they were fine. There are several different ways to do things and not one is right and the rest is wrong or vice versa. I am aggravated because for the first time I have doa's and this guy comes on this website where I have been doing business and begans to spread uncertainty and questions. I have shipped out over 200 zeb babies without problems and now because of one guy who has just come on here my reputation is being questioned and attacked. I don't like it, I don't think it is right, we had conversations before they were shipped we talked after they were shipped. He never once let on that he was having problems except he said he went to ups and they would only charge him I believe it was $62 dollars for shipping so he wanted me to reimburse the difference to a hundred and I replied that I have the receipt and it cost me $97 and change to ship it to him so I would not reimburse the difference but I would send him a copy of the receipt if he wanted it. He made no other mention. Now I find out he is on here bad mouthing my methods and basically pulling my reputation through the mud.

Ciclid baby I had no one pointed out it just amazes me that everybody that does something different is bad mouthed even though it has worked well for me.

This is the bottom line. No matter what anybody says I do my best to converse on any changes on shipping I email or call the tracking number as soon as I get it and I tell everybody to call as soon as they get them to make sure everything is fine. I don't know what more could be done other than drive cross country and hand deliver them.

Final word (hopefully) Any one that is interested in zebs contact aqua58 he is my supplier I have had enough of this crap to last me a life time. I have been attacked when I offered zebs for $100 I have been attacked by people that don't even own fish tanks yet I have had people bad mouth redundatly about price and now I have a guy that (i didnt blame for losing the zebs in any way) trying to make me seem like a pain in the butt...This is it....go find zebs somewhere else unless you actually have a clue what your doing than you can call me...

Thanks for all the faithful people that I have sold to over this last year I did my best to get you the best deal possible. Thanks again....