Exports of Zebs from the wild

[Barbie]

Daniel, first and foremost, welcome to the forum!

Is the person reselling these fish breaking the law. or is it the people exporting the fish? Is there a law against purchasing them at our end? I'm asking sincerely as I know for a fact another friend was offered some newly imported zebras again recently. While I realize that in a perfect world the solution would be to simply not purchase them, but I think everyone would attest to the fact that they'll have no problem selling them at some point down the line, it just might take a bit longer. Are the zebras best served by being in the hands of people less ethical?

All of this constant bickering on the subject gives me a brain ache. I'd love for it to reach some conclusion for a change .

Barbie

[Daniel Machado]

Barbie,

Let's try to clear up some points...

Is the person reselling these fish breaking the law. or is it the people exporting the fish? Is there a law against purchasing them at our end? I'm asking sincerely as I know for a fact another friend was offered some newly imported zebras again recently.

To be honest... NO. Brazilian law is not international. If your local laws say it's legal, it IS legal. But it remains WRONG, IMHO. That's the same as buying a robbed car that crosses the country borders... The buyer is not a criminal, but is buying the product of a crime and KNOWS IT.

Oh, the exporter IS breaking the law... At least the BRAZILIAN exporter. If the fishes are being re-exported, NO. No crime.

While I realize that in a perfect world the solution would be to simply not purchase them, but I think everyone would attest to the fact that they'll have no problem selling them at some point down the line, it just might take a bit longer. Are the zebras best served by being in the hands of people less ethical?

That's a delicate point... I agree with you, but there's something more here. Aside from the few successful keepers/breeders, how many hobbyists REALLY know what to do and how to take care of these fishes? The worst part is that these people don't recognize their own limitation, and keep buying and buying fishes that keep dying and dying...

Well, looking to my words, I realize that I agree with you. Better for the fishes to be in the hands of a knowledgeable keeper/breeder than in a "fish-haver" with an already overcrowded community tank.

But I still think that if the fishes are smuggled, don't have a "nice" origin, it's WRONG to sell them, even if it's not a crime anymore. But it's up to the importers/sellers to stop it. Not to the hobbyists, especially when the only ones that would let these WC fishes pass by are the ones that can take proper care of them.

Best regards.

Daniel.

[Barbie]

Thank you very much Daniel .

I do agree with you on the fact that they shouldn't be being exported at all if there's a ban on it. That was why I shared my knowledge of what was being said on this end of their journey. I also think that the extremely high price tag they're demanding will "weed out" most of the people that are going to keep them improperly. Spending 400 dollars on a fish is like wasting half of your rent money for the month. Definitely something most people won't do frivolously.

I don't know that there is a "right" answer in all of this, other than hoping that Brazil can get tougher enforcement on their exportation rules. At least the numbers leaving the country are GREATLY reduced this way and should be allowing the species time to repopulate up to whatever critical mass is for their locale, as long as some other species isn't already filling in their "niche".

When there was so much talk of the dam going in, it was hard for me to understand why they'd want to stop exporting them, only to effectively wipe them out with a hydroelectric project. We all know governments have done stranger things. Hopefully that won't be the case this time, although I know the demand for electricity in that and other areas is a very real problem that will eventually need to be addressed.

I do really appreciate your input on this subject, and your attempt to see it from both sides!

Barbie

[dave]

How about this for a way forward.

On the assumption that L46's are exported illegally to dealers, people who are very good customers, which means they are buying several boxes of fish.

Lets buy the L46's off them, and boycott them for every other species, dry goods etc.

It is unlikely that the sale of Wild Caught L46's these days is going to make up a high proportion of any commercial enterprises turnover, lets hit them where it hurts.

Unfortunately smuggling is a fact of life, if a product carries a premium, people will find a way, no country has ever stopped it, so while the Brazilian Government with L46's could do more it shouldn't be solely down to them.

Any thoughts welcome.

Dave

[Arowana]

my local LFS got some L046's from germany at a trade price of £80 each and sold them in his shop for £395 all eight sold in a matter of days,but 4 died, all had white spot and were still purchased, one guy wanted a refund but the owner said he told him that he would hold the fish untill such time the whitespot was erridicated but the customer was insistant to take the fish there and then only to come back a week later with them frozen in a cube of ice to show that they were dead. this goes to show even the expensive price tag does not ensure you get good healthy specimins. but i would love the ban to be lifted so that the blood line of the fish will remain clean and fresh.

[GlockFu]

I am seeing more come into the US market too. Does anyone know why? Is it all from Illegal exportation?

[TwoTankAmin]

There are for sure more wild caught zebras being offered in the USA than I have seen in the last few years. I can get sexed adults for $250 each in lots of 10 and even cheaper for more. I have noticed the ones being listed on AquaBid are not selling either at the "old" price levels. Clearly at least many 100s of zebras are being illegally collected and shipped out. maybe more since I have no idea about what is showing up on European and Asian markets.

The question is whether this is a good or bad thing as far as the species is concerned. There are virtually no studies of what the wild zebra populations look like- are they stable, rising, decreasing?

Apparently global pricing, driven by demand, has made it worth collecting in violation of the ban and smuggling them for export from neighboring countries. While we are all aware of the potential destruction of the zebra's habitat by the proposed dams, none has even broken ground as far as I know. So I reject the argument offered by some that buying illegally exported zebras is saving them from certain death.

What I do fear is that greed is now causing these fish to be over collected. Given how long it takes them to grow to breeding size/age, I wonder if the greater risk now is from over collection. If enough adults and sub adults are removed from the wild, I would suspect that alone could lead to the demise of the species.

I am torn myself. Knowing I can get sexed wild adults for $250 or less in lots of 10 is very tempting. But supporting the illegal export of the species given the above is something I believe is wrong. I feel doing so makes one responsible, to some extent, for possibly wiping the species out entirely.

What do other folks think?

[rickylbc]

You are very correct on that one, Chris... I know about 4 people on top of my head that's selling wild caught for $250.00 and like you said, cheaper for more.. They are all over. I wonder why?

[Daniel Machado]

This is sad... But as already said in this topic, the increased demand makes it more tempting to break the law.

Something I really can't understand... Why most "against-ban" people who would immediately buy any zebra pleco found in the LFS have no sign of breeding in their tanks? No use to a nice talking on "saving zebs in our tanks" if there is no breeding, IMHO. More like "I want some and don't mind about brazilian laws or the species in the wild" than saving the species. Ok, maybe I'm getting grumpy, but I'm tired of this "stop the ban thing" (no, I'm not talking about this forum, BTW).

But I have to agree... Even if not illegal in your country, you KNOW they are the product of a crime and anyone who buys WC zebs is responsible to the depletion of their population. AFAIK, is the only brazilian fish who is really endangered due to the ornamental fish trade. Not a nice thing.

Best regards.

Daniel.

[John]

I'll try to give as much official and first-hand info as I can.

Daniel,

Do you have access to information about the REPAPAq project: Production of acari-zebra (zebra Hypancistrus) under the conditions of captivity.


REPAPAq projects

This project is lead by André Luis Light Barbas

Could you update us here on the board regarding the status of the project or give any not mentioned information about the project?

Your input would be appreciated, thanks.

[John]

A F1 is the first generation tank bred.
Which rumour do you mean ?

[Jools]

A F1 is the first generation tank bred.
Which rumour do you mean ?

John,

The post above is a spammer, just repeating an old post in this thread. Check the sig link.

Jools

[John]

LOL guys

Was hoping for a comment by daniel machado