I just tested my water because I was considering doing an RO water change. I've never done this before but I want to trigger a second spawn (first spawn came from tap water, about 2 months ago). I'm pretty sure my female zebras are ready because it looks as though they are actually the ones trapping the male in his cave but I don't think the male is ready yet. The females have been spending a considerable amount of time in the males cave but still no action.
Here are my water parameters:
PH: 6.2
GH: 1
KH: 1
This is the first time I ever tested for GH and KH as I am just learning about these two elements. They all seem like they are pretty low.
My tap water's parameters are:
PH: 8
GH: 1
KH: 2
Should I be worried about my water parameters being so low? What will happen if I do an RO water change? Should I do an RO water change or should I just keep using tap water? I tested the parameters of the RO water and they seem to be almost the same as my fish tank water. Thanks for any advice you can give!
Water Parameter Help Please
Your water is VERY soft. In fact if your kh reading is correct you need to be buffering your water (increasing its hardness). When KH is below 4 the pH level can crash to VERY low levels wiping life in a tank.
If you are adding RO water because you want to control your water parameters and increase the quality of the water added then go for it. By using the correct salts (Kent RO right for example) you can create the exact hardness you require. However, I personally wouldn't bother in your case, and stick to tap water. I would focus more on buffering your tank water. There are a number of products on the market or you can just use a small bag of crushed oyster shells.
Cheers
If you are adding RO water because you want to control your water parameters and increase the quality of the water added then go for it. By using the correct salts (Kent RO right for example) you can create the exact hardness you require. However, I personally wouldn't bother in your case, and stick to tap water. I would focus more on buffering your tank water. There are a number of products on the market or you can just use a small bag of crushed oyster shells.
Cheers
Thanks for the reply Tom2600! I do have a fairly large piece of wood in the tank. Would this be enough to buffer the water or is it strictly dependant on the KH? If I were to put a bag of crushed clam shells in the tank would I just get clams from the supermarket and rinse them off with water. Are there any other ways for me to keep the PH stable? Thanks!
Bogwood is very unlikely to alter the water conditions apart from possibly releasing tanins into the water which can produce the black water (Amazon) colouration. The most simple method to buffer (raise the kh) would be to buy some Kent RO right. This is a blend of salts etc and you can add a very small amount with each water change to buffer the water. I would personally only use products manufactured for the aquatic trade.
I disagree with Tom about Ph crash paranoia
A KH of 1 degree is fairly stable between weekly partial water changes. If you want to maintain an acidic tank then a KH of 1 degree is pretty ideal. My KH is in this range most of the year except summer time and I even manage to run CO2 injection by adding a small amount of baking soda with each partial water change to boost the KH up a bit.
The key to dealing with soft water like this is to keep up with your partial water changes - otherwise the KH depletes and then you get a pH crash as acids build from nitrification. You can add a small amount of crushed coral to the tank to help buffer your water a bit further
There is no need for you to use RO water as your water is nearly RO already
Bog wood will lower your pH when it releases tanic acid. With a low KH there is nothing to stop the acid from lowering the pH
A KH of 1 degree is fairly stable between weekly partial water changes. If you want to maintain an acidic tank then a KH of 1 degree is pretty ideal. My KH is in this range most of the year except summer time and I even manage to run CO2 injection by adding a small amount of baking soda with each partial water change to boost the KH up a bit.
The key to dealing with soft water like this is to keep up with your partial water changes - otherwise the KH depletes and then you get a pH crash as acids build from nitrification. You can add a small amount of crushed coral to the tank to help buffer your water a bit further
There is no need for you to use RO water as your water is nearly RO already
Bog wood will lower your pH when it releases tanic acid. With a low KH there is nothing to stop the acid from lowering the pH
I see what your saying LyreTail but with a kH of 1 no paranoia is required as a pH is a very real possibility! I accept regular water changes will help to prevent this but from reading previous posts from Glockfu, regular water changes were not happening.
In relation to Kent RO right being a waste of money, yes it is if you have all the salts and minerals and know the correct quantities to add to a certain amount of water, however, I would say 95% of experienced aquarist would not know how to do this and therefore Kent RO right or any similar product is very good value for money.
In relation to Kent RO right being a waste of money, yes it is if you have all the salts and minerals and know the correct quantities to add to a certain amount of water, however, I would say 95% of experienced aquarist would not know how to do this and therefore Kent RO right or any similar product is very good value for money.
I once crashed the pH in a well stocked tank with 3 degrees kH. I was feeding the Synodontis live blackworms, pretty much free choice and weekly 30% water changes evidently didn't keep up with it. Paranoid isn't a way to describe taking a risk with zebras at 1 degree kH, IMO. I lost 8 of them years ago in a discus tank my ex was determined had to be terribly soft. The pH fell below 5 and the zebras died in a matter of hours while I was at work. The discus handled it fine. The zebras did not. If nothing else, add a few shells to the filter. As the water becomes more acidic, it dissolves the shells faster to compensate and stabilize.
Barbie
Barbie
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The pH is determined by the balance of bicarbonate and acids in the water, so if you are careful about acid inputs you should be fine along as you realize that nitrification and mineralization by the "good" bacterias also add acid to the water. CO2 should not be a factor in a tank with lots of surface agitation. The reason the KH lowers over time, is that it reacts with acids and the reaction results in CO2 release. In a highly aerated tank the CO2 goes right into the air. If the KH goes to zero because you do not do any partial water changes or do not add any KH to the tank for a long time, then the pH can crash with just the slight addition of acids. The more you feed a tank or the more fish load a tank has, the faster the KH can be used up.
Object lesson : Take a cup of vinegar and add a tsp of baking soda. The resulting reaction is the release of Carbon dioxide and the neutralization of some of the acetic acid. The sodium is left behind. This is what happens when the acids and the KH ions collide in your aquarium
A teaspoon of crushed coral for each 10 gal or 40 liter should be enough to help buffer your water without raising the pH too much between partial water changes. Add new crushed coral only when the old stuff starts to disappear. Adding 1/5th tsp of baking soda for each 10 gal during a partial water change will help increase buffer immediately and will result in less crushed coral use. Weekly or bi monthly partial water changes are very important ( depending on fish load to volume of water as well as how much you are feeding) These partial water changes not only help replenish the bicarbonate, but also reduce the organic acids and detritus that increase nitrification activity. Using activated carbon can also reduce some organics.
I am not saying anything different than was already said except that you do not have to be paranoid and have a KH of 3 or 4 to keep the pH stable. You just have to be aware of what makes the pH fall and tailor your procedures around the water. My fish are fine with a KH of less than 10 mg/l ( 1/2 degree) and I breed / raise swordtails. tetras, Blue and gold rams, Moliwe and Pulcher Kribensis, and several other fish. The fact is I attribute my Low KH as much of my success with breeding many of these fish. The fact is I was awful scared of keeping an acidic Discus tank until I learned how to control the water much easier. It is not real easy, but it did teach me to be less paranoid
Object lesson : Take a cup of vinegar and add a tsp of baking soda. The resulting reaction is the release of Carbon dioxide and the neutralization of some of the acetic acid. The sodium is left behind. This is what happens when the acids and the KH ions collide in your aquarium
A teaspoon of crushed coral for each 10 gal or 40 liter should be enough to help buffer your water without raising the pH too much between partial water changes. Add new crushed coral only when the old stuff starts to disappear. Adding 1/5th tsp of baking soda for each 10 gal during a partial water change will help increase buffer immediately and will result in less crushed coral use. Weekly or bi monthly partial water changes are very important ( depending on fish load to volume of water as well as how much you are feeding) These partial water changes not only help replenish the bicarbonate, but also reduce the organic acids and detritus that increase nitrification activity. Using activated carbon can also reduce some organics.
I am not saying anything different than was already said except that you do not have to be paranoid and have a KH of 3 or 4 to keep the pH stable. You just have to be aware of what makes the pH fall and tailor your procedures around the water. My fish are fine with a KH of less than 10 mg/l ( 1/2 degree) and I breed / raise swordtails. tetras, Blue and gold rams, Moliwe and Pulcher Kribensis, and several other fish. The fact is I attribute my Low KH as much of my success with breeding many of these fish. The fact is I was awful scared of keeping an acidic Discus tank until I learned how to control the water much easier. It is not real easy, but it did teach me to be less paranoid
My tank that I crashed the pH in? No driftwood or other things leeching acid. Simply the waste from the fish was enough to do it, as that too, is acidic. kH is the ability for your water to maintain a stable pH. Without it, you WILL risk crashing it, IMO. I did weekly 30% water changes religiously and still had a problem. Water changes ARE your friend, but with 1 degree kH I certainly wouldn't risk zebras without additional buffers. Why would you take that risk?
Barbie
Barbie
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Lyretail, you obviously have a decent grasp of water chemistry and how it can alter and therfore be controlled, so if you can maintain your low KH etc the that is great for your purposes. However, as Barbie said, most people do not want to take this risk as there is no need, and in the case of this post Glockfu is/was taking about zebra plecs....and definitely do not need a KH anywhere near as low as 1-2.
Tom - I really don't consider it a risk - add some crushed coral and keep up with partial water changes / clean filter pads. Add a tad of baking soda with each partial water change. Not really that difficult. If you have Zebras, I am not sure laziness with partial water changes are wise anyways
Barbie
I said "The more you feed a tank or the more fish load a tank has, the faster the KH can be used up. " I also said "otherwise the KH depletes and then you get a pH crash as acids build from nitrification." So I did clarify this aspect fairly thoroughly. I am not arguing that it takes some knowledge and care.
Barbie said "KH is the ability of your tank to resist pH change" This is not quite true, but the effect is true.
If you had the pH crash like this then you either where adding more food inputs than what you KH could handle and / or you had more fish than what you water changes were handling. I do a minimum of 50% water change each week.
I also said you were correct about adding crushed coral / Arogonite to help keep the pH stable. This should fully mitigate sudden pH crash because the more acidic your water the faster these will dissolve to compensate. However if you add too much, you will increase your water hardness over time.
Barbie / TOm
The only thing I am really contending is that fact that you have to boost the KH very much at all. With proper mitigating procedures that I lined out fairly carefully, your pH can remain stable even with a low KH. It is a common contention that "you need a KH of at least 3 to 4 degrees" However it is hard to maintain a stable pH that is acid with a KH of that high without constant acid introducing ( such as CO2 injection) . For me to be able to spawn and keep Discus, Rams and Apistogramma successfully and often in a non CO2 injected tank, I had to learn how to keep the KH low and the pH low at the same time.
The highest I have ever seen my KH in the summer time is 30 mg/l ( < 2 degrees) and the lowest in winter is somewhere below 10 mg/l ( <1 degree) . Personally I do not mess with the natural KH of my water that much except in my planted CO2 injected tanks where the pH would really plunge. I am a "test nut" so I do test my water. In fact all the testing that I have done, is what showed me the trends and gave me the ability to state with authority what I say here. In my curiosity I have read many scientific studies that showed me that my observations were in fact correct
Have I lost fish from low pH? Yes, one time I lost nearly half of my 200 Angel fry due to a pH crash. It is the only time I can think of right now. That was 200 - 1.5 cm sized fish in a 20 gallon tank ( 80 liters)
Is running a low KH tank a risk? Yes if you do not fully understand the aspects of the acid / bicarbonate relationship. Is it hard to run a low KH tank with an acid pH? No, but it does take your attention to detail and some precautions
The biggest risk to your fish is something that is often overlooked and hardly ever talked about. This is the osmotic pressure changes caused by subtracting total dissolved solids in your water. This can kill your fish faster than anything else including ammonia buildup. When the TDS fall drastically, the fish cells can literally explode with the osmotic pressure increase. Lets say you have really hard water and you do a 50% water change with distilled water. This will not only lower your pH and KH , but it will also lower your TDS. The fish gill cells will explode and the fish will die of O2 starvation within a day to a week depending on the amount of damage created by the TDS change. A large pH change ( within tolerance limits) will not normally effect your fish that much, but if the pH change is associated with a lowering of the TDS then the fish may die rather quickly. I learned this from ordering fish from Florida where the water is really hard. When the fish entered my water they died very quickly. Since learning this, I now Raise the hardness in my QT tank with various salts and simulate the harder water in Florida. I have not lost a fish since doing this ( knock on wood)
Barbie
I said "The more you feed a tank or the more fish load a tank has, the faster the KH can be used up. " I also said "otherwise the KH depletes and then you get a pH crash as acids build from nitrification." So I did clarify this aspect fairly thoroughly. I am not arguing that it takes some knowledge and care.
Barbie said "KH is the ability of your tank to resist pH change" This is not quite true, but the effect is true.
If you had the pH crash like this then you either where adding more food inputs than what you KH could handle and / or you had more fish than what you water changes were handling. I do a minimum of 50% water change each week.
I also said you were correct about adding crushed coral / Arogonite to help keep the pH stable. This should fully mitigate sudden pH crash because the more acidic your water the faster these will dissolve to compensate. However if you add too much, you will increase your water hardness over time.
Barbie / TOm
The only thing I am really contending is that fact that you have to boost the KH very much at all. With proper mitigating procedures that I lined out fairly carefully, your pH can remain stable even with a low KH. It is a common contention that "you need a KH of at least 3 to 4 degrees" However it is hard to maintain a stable pH that is acid with a KH of that high without constant acid introducing ( such as CO2 injection) . For me to be able to spawn and keep Discus, Rams and Apistogramma successfully and often in a non CO2 injected tank, I had to learn how to keep the KH low and the pH low at the same time.
The highest I have ever seen my KH in the summer time is 30 mg/l ( < 2 degrees) and the lowest in winter is somewhere below 10 mg/l ( <1 degree) . Personally I do not mess with the natural KH of my water that much except in my planted CO2 injected tanks where the pH would really plunge. I am a "test nut" so I do test my water. In fact all the testing that I have done, is what showed me the trends and gave me the ability to state with authority what I say here. In my curiosity I have read many scientific studies that showed me that my observations were in fact correct
Have I lost fish from low pH? Yes, one time I lost nearly half of my 200 Angel fry due to a pH crash. It is the only time I can think of right now. That was 200 - 1.5 cm sized fish in a 20 gallon tank ( 80 liters)
Is running a low KH tank a risk? Yes if you do not fully understand the aspects of the acid / bicarbonate relationship. Is it hard to run a low KH tank with an acid pH? No, but it does take your attention to detail and some precautions
The biggest risk to your fish is something that is often overlooked and hardly ever talked about. This is the osmotic pressure changes caused by subtracting total dissolved solids in your water. This can kill your fish faster than anything else including ammonia buildup. When the TDS fall drastically, the fish cells can literally explode with the osmotic pressure increase. Lets say you have really hard water and you do a 50% water change with distilled water. This will not only lower your pH and KH , but it will also lower your TDS. The fish gill cells will explode and the fish will die of O2 starvation within a day to a week depending on the amount of damage created by the TDS change. A large pH change ( within tolerance limits) will not normally effect your fish that much, but if the pH change is associated with a lowering of the TDS then the fish may die rather quickly. I learned this from ordering fish from Florida where the water is really hard. When the fish entered my water they died very quickly. Since learning this, I now Raise the hardness in my QT tank with various salts and simulate the harder water in Florida. I have not lost a fish since doing this ( knock on wood)
Lyretail,
I'm not sure anyone is disputing your methods and any perceived "risk taking". If it works for you then stick with it. Personally I like to know what i'm adding to my RO water and therefore use Kent RO right. I don't mind this slight expense when I have a good few hundred pounds worth of fish in my tank. Plus, my tub of RO right has so far lasted me for nearly 3 years! Personally (on the subject orginally discussed) I believe that having a very low KH in a tank full of zebras is a "risk". Note this is my opinion.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say on the subject of osmotic potential in cells. If cells in a fish are "exploding" then you are taking about a severe osmotic differential and the fish will die almost instantly. A slight and prolonged negative change in the osmotic potential will cause the fish to weaken and it will probably die from a secondary illness.
This is certainly my last post on this subject as it is becoming like a Biology lesson.
I'm not sure anyone is disputing your methods and any perceived "risk taking". If it works for you then stick with it. Personally I like to know what i'm adding to my RO water and therefore use Kent RO right. I don't mind this slight expense when I have a good few hundred pounds worth of fish in my tank. Plus, my tub of RO right has so far lasted me for nearly 3 years! Personally (on the subject orginally discussed) I believe that having a very low KH in a tank full of zebras is a "risk". Note this is my opinion.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say on the subject of osmotic potential in cells. If cells in a fish are "exploding" then you are taking about a severe osmotic differential and the fish will die almost instantly. A slight and prolonged negative change in the osmotic potential will cause the fish to weaken and it will probably die from a secondary illness.
This is certainly my last post on this subject as it is becoming like a Biology lesson.
