What are our ambitions with L46's

eklikewhoa · Post by **eklikewhoa** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:35 am

i would like a handout as well, i would rather have some zebras handed to me for free so i wouldnt have to work hard for them and go through the stress of sourcing some out or taking the risk of bidding on some from some auction site.

hell, i'll pay shipping both ways and will give up all the fry out of each batch except for one

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:32 am

While we are asking for stuff, does anyone have an extra Metal Halide laying around I could have?

Just lightening the tension eddie.

Are the zebs that hard to take care of that breeders are choosey who they sell them to. Or is it the fact of all the time, money, and effort. Like I said, I'm new to this and would like to have some zebs.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:06 pm

LOL No prob Bobby.

Forums are made for discussions and as long as everyone is adult in the conversations, I have no problems with it.

Regarding your question...zebs aren't hard to take care of. I find my discus more care than my zebras. Sure I clean the tank with my zebs daily and do water changes daily, but it's a small tank, which doesn't take me long. My discus are in bigger tanks (125 gallon and 29 gallon QT). I constantly have to watch the discus during feeding to make sure they get enough. If not, then I have to make sure they do. Otherwise, their growth gets stunted.

The zebra breeders that I know are not choosy. They go by first come first serve basis. They have a list. Now, I haven't asked, but I'm sure that list can easily be manipulated. For example, if you have customer that wants to buy (6) 1" zebras and will pay $1000 for them once they spawn. Then another customer comes in later but is willing to pay for (6) 1" zebras at $2000 once they spawn. Which do you think will get preference? Face it. If the guy willing to pay $2000 can't find them from you, he will for sure go somewhere else. So why lose that sale? Business is business I say.

Alistair · Post by **Alistair** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:15 pm

IMHO I would say there are only two points in breeders releasing zebs: it is either purely money driven or knowing that there young, that they have slaved over to produce and rear, are taken care off by someone with the same level of passion and will (with a bit of luck) increase he numbers of the fish within the hobby, does anybody think either or both of these points are elitist or not?
Is it elitist to want a significant return on you own investment in time or money?
Equally is it elitist to ensure that your young zebs are looked after by some one with as much passion and skill as themselves?

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:43 pm

This is where I'm split. Do I hold out and try breeding Zebs? Or should I try something like L129's. My second choice right now. I want to breed zebs but I'm not willing to spend that kind of money. I know you all work really hard and spend lots of money raising your fish. I hate to say it but I feel the price of the zebs is what is holding some people back. I can already hear it, " If you dont want to pay the price you should'nt be here."

I know, but I'm hooked.

Alistair · Post by **Alistair** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:26 pm

The thing is though even before the ban the prices where still high, as we all know this fish is a very nice and distinct looking fish which led to them having high prices from the off.

When I got my first fish they were in the region of £40 - £50 each (retail price, I actually paid less thn that as worked in the trade at the time).

Even if the price does drop I don't ever think that we will get below these prices purely because the fish is so beautiful. As I have said earlier, look at Japenese Koi, there are thousands and thousands of those around but they can command a price of many £1000's each.

Plastic Mac · Post by **Plastic Mac** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:33 pm

She most surtainly has not, as that is not how I think

Sorry McEve I wasn't trying to imply you had said that. I've never seen any post on here from you which would imply anything like that and I'm sure if a link to the post in question is supplied then it won't say anything of the sort.

I was just trying to also say at the same time, that we all probably have differing standards about who we would sell young zebra's to...and it is the right of the breeder to be as selective as they like.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:05 pm

rhino wrote:I know you all work really hard and spend lots of money raising your fish. I hate to say it but I feel the price of the zebs is what is holding some people back.

Don't get me started on that Bobby. I'm sure you know and everyone knows how I feel about that. LOL

Hopefully, if and when I get my zebras spawning, I'ld make them available to pleco enthusiast, and just not zebra pleco enthusiast. Of course, not to just any shmuck who can afford them, which would be cruel. In a few years, the only enthusiast that would be probably afford them would be names like Donald Trump, Bill Gates, Forbs. LOL

Or for those who want the quick buck, they may find a way to start introducing hormones to the zebs, as they do with clown loaches, to make them spawn and release allot of eggs.

Forget meth labs, breed zebras!!!

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:10 pm

I'm not sure I understand all the fuss about the price... currently I own no zebras because I cannot afford them. That's the way the world works. I have a fascination with hand forged swords and they are also expensive and rare but I never see people on the sword forums calling bladesmiths elitist because of the prices they charge.

Anyway, FWIW.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:35 pm

Well, another way I see it is, allot of people are selling zebras as if it's the rarest fish in the world. They are rare, but as you can see in several forums that people are selling them and buying them, because of the "rare" factor. With so many people breeding/selling/buying them, I can't really say that it's "rare" anymore. As in my example, I just call up a few people to see what they have available, drive about 30 minutes, and buy a zeb. Rare? NO.

I can understand that price of them being so high when they were first introduced to aquarists, but like I said, many people are selling and buying zebras. I would also understand paying high price for a zebra caught in the wild, but most of the ads I see are tank bred. There's probably no other fish you can name that tank bred and wild fish are priced about the same.

With those prices, it's cheaper to illegally import them, that to spend the time raise fry, and breed them. And I'm SURE they are still being illegally imported. If you look at the Singapore buy/sell section at PlecoFanatics here. Someone is receiving about 100 pieces of zebras at various sizes. Doesn't that sound like they were caught from the wild? Because I'm sure people would sell their zebras as soon as they are able to, even at less than 1".

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:04 pm

So what is your point? That legitimate breeders should lower their prices to discourage smuggling?

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:11 pm

Basically, people should rethink the cost of the zebras. I'm sure there are a few people who feel the same. I don't feel you should boycott zebra breeders. Hell. I'm buying zebras at typically the same price everyone else is buying them at. I get no special previlages, nor do I want to be treated in that way.

Allot of people are making it look like the time and money spent should warrant the high price. As with basica manufacturing, the first prototype is usually expensive. But once you have the equipment and are producing, the prices typically goes down.

Lets look at it at another perspective. Let's say I have an original Monet painting, which I bought for $10,000 (USD). Now I manage to find the same exact canvas that Monet used, the same inks that Claude Monet used in the paintings. I bought $20,000 of equipment that will duplicate the painting, exact to the strokes, including the Monet signature. This machine duplicates 10 Monet paintings a year. Could you justify me selling my duplicated Monet paintings also for $10,000?

Post by **Barbie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:24 pm

If there is such a glut of zebras out there, there wouldn't still be waiting lists for people raising them. The price is what it is because people are willing to pay it. Period. The fact that you aren't is more a personal problem and issue, no? I can't afford many things I'd like to own and work with. It's how economics work. If there was a glut of zebras, the price would fall, not rise. It's what I've been trying to explain all this time. Lowering the price wouldn't solve the problem that there just isn't enough of them being raised to come anywhere close to meeting demand. It would just make the fight for them that much more vicious and traumatic for the people actually raising the fish and trying to benefit their conservation. That's the big hole in your line of reasoning that you refuse to look into, IMO.

This all from someone that is only now raising fry again and who has given away or lost more zebras herself than she's sold.

Barbie

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:25 pm

I think you are comparing apples and oranges. Niether art prints nor a mass produced product are good metaphors.

Zebra Pleco breeding is perhaps more akin to dog breeding. You don't see people who breed purebred dogs lowering their prices. If I want a full AKC registered minature schnauzer I can expect to pay $400 or more for that dog. Some people will steal purebred dogs so they can resell them; others run puppy mills where dogs are bred in horrible conditions to profit from the high price each puppy commands. In niether case does society expect the ethical breeders to lower thier prices because of the behavior of bad actors in the trade.

Breeders have the right to set the price where they want. If it is too high, nobody will purchase. If it is too low, well, that is their choice to not maximize returns.

You're putting me in an awkward postion crazie.eddie - I am a bleeding heart liberal and completely unused to defending capitalism!

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:33 pm

Andyt. wrote: You're putting me in an awkward postion crazie.eddie - I am a bleeding heart liberal and completely unused to defending capitalism!

Cant we all just get along?