What are our ambitions with L46's

[dave]

Well step 1 is to get some, step 2 is to breed them and produce good quality young.

As McEve stated in another thread, following an exchange where really the fry were rubbish, McEve would only trust Rob, Barbie and Adam for fish.

I find this a little bit disturbing, as a lot of people are making a lot of effort to breed quality fish, and to date when members of this site have exchanged or sold fish I have seen no complaints.

From commercial breeders I have purchased snub noses, a risk you take.

Rob did ask me in a PM when I mentioned that some people thought this site was elitist, how it was so?

Well this is an example, and any comments on how we overcome it are welcome.

Dave

[eklikewhoa]

i too would feel more comfortable with a person that had more exerience with breeding, shipping, raising, and keeping zebra's alive versus some random guy trying to make a buck.

i personally have been referred to a breeder that wasnt listed in your post and from the pictures they look great and i will soon be parting with my money and finding out for myself.

[McEve]

As McEve stated in another thread, following an exchange where really the fry were rubbish, McEve would only trust Rob, Barbie and Adam for fish.

I would?

Please don't put words in my mouth

[thebuddy]

Can exotic finds be trusted? That's were I think I'll get my zebras.

[Andyt.]

To some degree, I don't see that there is anything wrong with being elitist. After all, we are specifically concerned with propagating one species and hopefully seeing that species thrive. We have concrete proof that this animal is being smuggled out of Brazil despite being on IBAMA's endangered species list (.pdf download of species list). If being extremely cautious of where one gets these fish is elitist, well, so be it.

But I don't think it is elitist to want to purchase these fish from people who have a demonstrated track record of interest in the well being of the species and a proven history of success breeding them... in other words, members of this list!!

[crazie.eddie]

We have concrete proof that this animal is being smuggled out of Brazil despite being on IBAMA's endangered species list (.pdf download of species list). If being extremely cautious of where one gets these fish is elitist, well, so be it.

The thing is, we are probably increasing the illegal imports of these fish. As people keep raising the prices of the zebras, it becomes more viable for one to steal fish than to buy, raise, and grow it. As the prices increase, only the rich and wealthy would be able to afford them, so the demand would decrease. Therefore, breeders are putting themselves out of the market. Eventually, there will be more zebra plecos in the hands of breeders than there would be out in the wild, due to the high cost.

[Plastic Mac]

Any group of people where the one commonality between them is something expensive, rare or both can be classed as an elitist group. However once you join I think you'll find it's nothing of the sort. I could probably find a forum about cuban cigars and since some of those cigars cost more than I earn in a month it would be very easy for me to sit where I am and call them an elitist group., but that wouldn't necessarilly make me right would it?
I would of expected you Dave not have that view at all though, as I think anyone who has spent any time here can see the attitude that we try and promote is anything but elitist.
I've never known anyone who joined not to be made very welcome here or not be offered any help they requested and all that is asked of anyone who joins is to observe the basic but essential forum rules. That's hardly an elitist group in my opinion.

I'm not sure I have an answer to the original question you posed which was where my ambitions lie with them. I guess, originally it was so I could add another string to my fishkeeping bow as it were...now it's so I can help in my own little way to alleviate the problems faced by the zebra. It's that simple, nothing more.

Rob did ask me in a PM when I mentioned that some people thought this site was elitist, how it was so?

Well this is an example, and any comments on how we overcome it are welcome.

Apart from the fact that McEve states she never said anything of the sort, perhaps a link would help so we can make out own mind up. But even if McEve had said that, then I think it's pretty unfair on everyone here to call it an elitist group based on one persons personal opinion.

[chanettt]

i guess the best way after all is to put the zebra to the right people who really want to take care of them and breed them.

the demand of zebra is going up and down depends on price. however, the price still going up that means people there are still a lot of demand but the supply is not enough.

if the number of the breeders increase and be able to produce enough amount of zebra to serve the market need then the price will definatly goes down.

the other way that seem not really work is to sell the zebra in a low price to bring the market price down. however, there are still many people who want to take advantage on quick money.

so if everyone help each other til we all success in breeding and try to spread out the knowledge to other people around each country in different areas, then this would help increasing the number of zebra.

many people fall in love with this fish and really want to take care of them but still don't have enough money. thus, helping them by selling them with the cheap price would be a good idea but that is not enough.

trying to help them to success in breeding is a key. that way they can spread their knowlege to other zebra lovers that they know to make a double or multiple increasing on zebras.

[Andyt.]

Hi crazie.eddie,

I'm not sure I buy your premise that we are increasing smuggling. I believe that smuggling of this fish will happen regardless of this board. The people who catch fish have families to feed and they, like everyone else, will do what it takes to feed them. Higher on the supply chain, unethical people will behave unethically and will knowingly accept and resell smuggled fish.

Despite all of this, I believe that the end consumer, the hobbyist, is where a constructive difference can be made. If you google "Zebra Pleco" this site is the first real hit. That means hobbyists have a chance to learn the status of the fish and become educated. I really believe that most hobbyists care about the fish they keep and will not seek out illegal sources for this fish - if they know about the status of the fish.

Right now we only have 43 breeders of this fish. That is going to keep increasing over time. We are really zeroing in on what it takes to get this fish spawning. The more people breed it, the more available the fish will be to hobbyists wanting it. Hopefully an increase in supply will mean a gradual drop in prices and a more general availability of captive bred zebras.

So I see this site as a net positive for the zebra - we educate and propagate!

[rhino]

Me being extremely new to all of this, reading these statements is a bit unsettleing. I would love to be able to breed the zebs. It just seems portrayed by some that only certain people should be able to even possess them. Dont get me wrong, I have received nothing but welcome since coming here. I know you should'nt have to take someone by the hand and lead them every step of the way, but with me that is probably the case. Does that mean I should'nt be here?

[McEve]

Any group of people where the one commonality between them is something expensive, rare or both can be classed as an elitist group. However once you join I think you'll find it's nothing of the sort. I could probably find a forum about cuban cigars and since some of those cigars cost more than I earn in a month it would be very easy for me to sit where I am and call them an elitist group., but that wouldn't necessarilly make me right would it?

*applause*

I'm not sure I have an answer to the original question you posed which was where my ambitions lie with them.

My amibition has been, ever since I fell in love with this fish and learning about it's demise was to simply try to get hold of the fish and breed it. My drop in the ocean of wild life care....

Apart from the fact that McEve states she never said anything of the sort, perhaps a link would help so we can make out own mind up. But even if McEve had said that

She most surtainly has not, as that is not how I think

however, there are still many people who want to take advantage on quick money.

I just don't see how this is possible. I've made money on Angel fry, but Zebras..? Come on... Hard to get started, only lay max 20 eggs, expect 50% to see their one year anniversary, and shouldn't/"can't" be sold until they are at least 6 months....

So I see this site as a net positive for the zebra - we educate and propagate!

This is what this site is all about! Any question asked about how to breed this fish and take care of it is always answered with the intent to see yet another breeder of the Zebra.

How is that elitist!? This site is about sharing information. How many of you have looked in the menu to see how much information is really available on this site?

Elitist? I think not! Working for the Zebra? All the way.

Me being extremely new to all of this, reading these statements is a bit unsettleing. I would love to be able to breed the zebs. It just seems portrayed by some that only certain people should be able to even possess them. Dont get me wrong, I have received nothing but welcome since coming here. I know you should'nt have to take someone by the hand and lead them every step of the way, but with me that is probably the case. Does that mean I should'nt be here?

You are very welcome, and don't let anybody make you think otherwise

[rhino]

however, there are still many people who want to take advantage on quick money.

I just don't see how this is possible. I've made money on Angel fry, but Zebras..? Come on... Hard to get started, only lay max 20 eggs, expect 50% to see their one year anniversary, and shouldn't/"can't" be sold until they are at least 6 months....

The only way I can see this, and from what I have been hearing here, is those who would take advantage of a low price and raising it.This makes it hard on people like me who have a wife who controls the money. [/quote]

[crazie.eddie]

I'm not sure I buy your premise that we are increasing smuggling. I believe that smuggling of this fish will happen regardless of this board. The people who catch fish have families to feed and they, like everyone else, will do what it takes to feed them. Higher on the supply chain, unethical people will behave unethically and will knowingly accept and resell smuggled fish.

I doubt if the price of an adult zebra were all of a sudden brought down to like the price of a common pleco, that people would stop trying to illegally smuggling them? Would you want to go to jail for stealing a Hyndai or Bentley?

Right now we only have 43 breeders of this fish. That is going to keep increasing over time. We are really zeroing in on what it takes to get this fish spawning. The more people breed it, the more available the fish will be to hobbyists wanting it. Hopefully an increase in supply will mean a gradual drop in prices and a more general availability of captive bred zebras.

There are probably 43 KNOWN breeders, I know there are allot more. There are allot of them in Illinois, and I know a couple of them by recent contact. One of them has been breeding zebras for a long time time. Probably longer than any of you. Do they have good zebras? YES. Some as simple setups with just BB tank, a mater pair, sponge filter, and spawning cave. Another has a very nice elaborate setup, planted tanks, sand substrate, slate caves, tunnels, shrimp. Some already get overwhelmed by zebra orders and haven't publicly advertised their sell.

So if there is an increase in supply, the price will drop as well? Well, if you're in it for the money and know people are willing to buy it for $100 (USD) for a zebra under an inch, would you decrease your price? I doubt it.

I don't raise or breed zebras, yet. And I've spent already thousands of dollars (USD) on fish and equipment alone. I expect to spend more as the years come by. I'm sure this is nothing to the saltwater/reef keeper community. If we expected to make money from our hobbies, then we're in the wrong business.

[Barbie]

I'd love to hear just exactly where this increase in supply is coming from to drop the price. I am positively DELUGED with people asking me about zebra fry every time the subject comes up on other boards. I put everyone that requests me to do it onto my waiting list, as long as I feel they could provide an adequate home for my babies. Would I sell them to someone that just wants to look at them? Nope. There aren't enough of them out there to risk ANY potential breeders being wasted.

I know you've got it in your head eddie that if all the breeders just dropped the price then the demand would go away, but you're terribly mistaken. It would just make the people that aren't willing to invest the time and money into them (unlike all of us that HAVE, mind you) able to afford the fish also. Actually causing MORE demand, not less. Yes, the fish wouldn't then be smuggled as often, at least not to here. Then they'd go overseas instead, where the people are willing to pay the money. The fact of the matter is that there are people perfectly willing to pay a reasonable price for fish they can only get from breeders. These fish don't have large spawns and are far from a fortune waiting to happen, even for people charging higher prices.

I've been wondering, if you know so many people raising them, why don't you already have all you could want? Why this continued abuse of the people when it's actually the economics that are controlling the price of the fish?

Dave, my only comment on your input in this thread, is that you've ranted and railed that people aren't doing things exactly the way you would do them to continue the proliferation of the species, yet you worry about people thinking the board is elitist? Taking a step back and looking at the big picture might again make you see that the source of some of that outlook isn't necessarily something the mods have created in our constant battle to keep this place informative for everyone.

Barbie

[crazie.eddie]

I've been wondering, if you know so many people raising them, why don't you already have all you could want? Why this continued abuse of the people when it's actually the economics that are controlling the price of the fish?

Barbie

Like yourselves, they have a list also. The difficult thing about me getting them is money, since I only work part time, due to getting laid off. I only have the funds to buy a zebra every few months or so.

But if anybody wants to prove me wrong, then through RAOK loan me some zebras. Give me 3 years time, if I don't produce any spawn, I return your zebras. Since I spent my time, my money feeding them, you should be able to sell the zebras at a much higher price. If I do produce spawn, then I'll give you the spawn. Of every 1 zebra you give me, you get 2 in return. And if you want, I can raise them into adulthood (again, my time and money) then give them back. Since you guys are complaining about you don't get much money out of it with the time, food, and equipment spent. So let me spend the money and time for them. I'll even sign a contract.

FYI, I have a 40 gallon breeder (thanks to Petcos tank sale), Eheim 2236 filter, 2 Powersweep 228 powerheads, Hydor inline heater, Turbo-twist UV sterilizer (in case), Ro-DI unti, which are all set to go. I'm in the process of making pleco caves, which should not be any problems.