Inbreeding is it a problem?

[Zebrapl3co]

... If mother two fish breed and one or both carries a recessive trait for a deformity, then it is more likely that their spawn will carry this trait also. If this spawn breeds with either the F0 or a fellow F1 and both of these new parents carry the trait, then this is where the problem lies. Then fore sure their spawn will have a much greater chance of having both alleles for the trait thereby resulting in an expressed (visually or internally) deformed fish...

I supposed you can say that. Not sure what you meant by F0 as the definition of that is subject to interpretation. But yes that's pretty much now is works. You can cross the F1 with it's brother or sister and that will increase the chances of a certain trait. That's how the veil tail and albino BN pleco came about. That certain person keeps crossing the ones with the biggest fin with it's sister or brother. After about 10 or 20 generations, a majority of the offsprings will have veil tail.

[McEve]

For all who's interested:
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.a ... 840E00.HTM

Btw, I believe there was a guppy that is now very common (certain type of guppy) that all come from two individuals originally? I'm not surtain about what type, or even if it was a guppy, so I probably shouldn't even mention it. But there you go

[thebuddy]

what in the seven seas, it came from two individuals and now they are very comen lets think about that hmm looking through my bookcase i find a record of somthing like that... anyone familiar with the book of genisis

but yes that is possible although i think it might have been a color varitoin that there were only 2 of

[Zebrapl3co]

For all who's interested:
http://www.fao.org/documents/show_cdr.a ... 840E00.HTM

Btw, I believe there was a guppy that is now very common (certain type of guppy) that all come from two individuals originally? I'm not surtain about what type, or even if it was a guppy, so I probably shouldn't even mention it. But there you go

Damn, that is one hell of a long article. I skimp throught the article and skip some chapters. From what I gathered. If I want to breed only 5 - 10 generations of healthy fish that will not develope Genetic drift or inbreeding depression, I need around 45 - 60 fish?
Did I get that right?

[dave]

Thanks for the link. If I said interesting, I know it's not (Anything with mathematical formulae isn't), but guess I'll print it out.

I have plenty of time before I start getting second generation fish to understand the concept.

Dave

[madmoroccan]

From all the literature and websites out there, there is only one conclusion (with the exception of guppies)... It is extremely unwise to inbreed...

A breeding couple or trio will last for the best part of 8-10 years, right?

So how many spawns in that time would you expect? All I am saying is the need to introduce a "new" male or female isn't that great if you have a breeding group that lasts for many years, but with a steady turnover of fry you are guaranteed a bargaining chip with your LFS, so instead of worrying about inbreeding, why not swap a couple of fry for a new tank to separate all the f2 females from the main colony and swap all the f2 males for some males from a different batch?

The fundamental thing is everybody on this forum who breeds them would be interested in the swap system (like for like), simply because there are no costs involved. And if you know where the swapped fish came from, then the chance of inbreeding is almost wiped out.

Sincerely

Bader.

PS. just think, if the royal family knew what we know, we would have been saved from the eye sore that is Charles and Camilla!

[AndyAps.com]

hi everyone
@ thebuddy.......im familliar with genesis...its a fantastic book available under the Fiction Heading in the local library for anyone wanting to read it.
I'm also familiar with Evolution! No offence but.....

Ok I keep and Breed Pedigree British Bulldogs, while i agree that pedigree dogs of todays world were created to tick show boxes rather than to fulfill their natural duties (ie. chasing catching food, giving birth without ceasarean (spellin?)) and the breeding which acheived this also created breathing problems, heart problems, hip dysplasia etc it is not soley the thru the fault of inbreeding.
Through the bulldog show circuits i know many people who have bred "brother and sister" Bulldogs and have ended up with Bulldogs which are not only aesthetically pleasing (show winners) but which also have little or no health problems and on genetic examination are very dominant (strong). I also plan to do the same with my sibling pups.
Granted though, this is not just done on an adhoc basis as it would be with fish, each Dog is genetically tested etc to make an educated prediction as to the outcome before any mating occurs. this off course is highly improbable with fish due to cost and gaining DNA samples from fish.
All in all i think it is probably best to keep fish gene pools varied to an extent but see no problem breeding a tank full of Zebra's over and again as
A) the fish will naturally select the strongest specimen (and therefore genectically dominant)
B) it would take many generations for mutations to present themselves let alone establish
Also as long as the responsible breeders among us pledge to cull mutations (sounds harsh but is a must for the health of the genepool) then things should be ok

[Barbie]

Inbreeding for a couple generations really shouldn't cause any problems for fish, IMO. It's not like show dogs, where you're already dealing with a limited gene pool for most "types". All dogs are the same species, they've just been specifically line bred for the traits that are desired. Hypancistrus zebra are a wide open gene pool that doesn't necessarily require inbreeding to "fix" any desirable trait, but it also isn't already a small gene pool that's going to cause imminent dangers after two crosses. I definitely think you will need to track such a thing, but honestly, it's 10 years from your first spawn til the day you're going to be worrying about a third outcross. It's not like guppies where the problem is imminent from the moment the fry are dropped. Finding someone to swap an F2 male with shouldn't be a real issue if people are having that many spawns .

Barbie

[Rob]

Hi

I have removed the "Sticky Status" from this post as It has evolved into a discussion as opposed to a singular informative post.

Nice Topic however!!!



I will remove my(this) post in a few days.

rob