Bullnose? What do you think?

arobles34 · Post by **arobles34** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:13 am

I bought this zebra from on aquabid. What do you guys think??

gwchat · Post by **gwchat** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:26 am

Seeing the pictures you have to offer it is pretty clear to me the Zebra is not a Snubby. I do agree the sec. photo down makes it look like a snub, but I assume it had to do with the angle of the specimen container when the picture was taken. This is of course my opinion many miles away looking at a couple pictures. I have bred many Zebras with only expriencing one snubby out maybe 75 to 100 fry and it was very noticable that it was a sbubby early on. The nose had no point to it at all it was completely squared off, and when you looked at it from the top it looked like it had a box for a face. Those that I have talked with that have raised them out and have bred them have found they do not pass this trait on or have not at least to this point seen it re-emerge. Until these beautiful fish are being bred as commonly as guppies and Angels we are all going to have to pick and choose the information that seems credable until it is proven true. This site is one of those first great steps forward. I hope you get a lot of help with your new purchase that will ease your mind. Good luck.

Thanks,
GW

arobles34 · Post by **arobles34** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:43 pm

Thanks gw,

I hope more members like yourself with alot of breeding experince post. I would like as much input as I can get.

I was planning to put this zeb in a breeding tank but I wouldnt want to do that if it was a snub nose for fear of pass that trait on.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:05 am

gwchat wrote:Those that I have talked with that have raised them out and have bred them have found they do not pass this trait on or have not at least to this point seen it re-emerge.

This is interesting. Who has bred snubnoses, and have they publiced any articles about it? Would it be possible to get a report from those people you have talked to that say they have bred them?

btw, I don't think it looks like a snubnose arobles34, maybe a bordercase, but not a "true" snubnose

gwchat · Post by **gwchat** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:49 am

I will be glad to talk with those I am familiar with and see if they are willing to come forth and document their progress. That is about the best I can offer for proof. I am not the type of person that will give names of people that I have not asked if it is ok to do so. If they do not mind me doing so then we will have no problems, but I guess if they choose not to come forth it will have to be me saying something that may or may not be true and those members reading the thread deciding for themselves whether the information that I post is trust worthy or not. I do not see what I have to gain by giving false or bad information. It helps no one especially me by doing so. I will let you know what they have to say.

Thanks,
GW

Post by **Barbie** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 2:02 am

This is one of those situations where people will open themselves to criticism for doing something that some have said all along is totally ethical as the original cause is an injury, not genetics. I would doubt that anyone wants to deal with that situation, but I definitely am comforted to hear that my own suspicions may turn out to be correct.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:31 am

I have said earlier that I'm not concerned about being right or wrong. I'm interested in finding the cause, and is therefor naturally interested in hearing about it if somebody did breed two snubnoses, from those that did it.

I'm not sure where critizism comes into play...

INXS · Post by **INXS** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:19 pm

McEve,
I'm pretty sure that the "criticizm" had nothing to do with anything you said.

If I understand Barbie correctly I think what she meant was this:

If someone comes forward and admits to breeding "snubnoses" there may be criticizm for trying to create "mutants" kindof like hybridizing. Since I'm sure none of us wan't the risk of there being mutated zebras on the market and subsequently getting introduced into the hobby, mixed in and possibly polluting the gene pool - there would probably be a lot of criticizm towards somebody who would knowingly try to breed deformed fish.
For that reason I also would doubt that someone would be quick to come forward and admit to breeding snub noses.

Sorry for the hijack and BTW, I do agree that the fish in question may be a partial snubnose but since it's agreed that it is due to an injury and not a genetic trait that would be passed on it's really moot.

Post by **Barbie** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:59 pm

This is the thread where a few are extremely critical of the possibility that it would be safe to breed these fish, or that the condition could be the result of an injury.

I'd personally love to hear reports of this and I do not think it's unethical to have tested the theory I intended to try myself. I just also wouldn't blame anyone that didn't want to have their name involved in the subject, after the prior discussions.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:23 pm

Barbie wrote: I just also wouldn't blame anyone that didn't want to have their name involved in the subject, after the prior discussions.

Barbie

Why is that? Discussion is one thing, facts another. If someone has bred them they have facts.

Post by **Barbie** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:55 pm

McEve, it's just my opinion. Did you read the thread I posted again? It might shed a bit more light on my reasoning

.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 5:45 pm

I've read the post. What I'm trying to say is that before now, including that thread, it's all been opinions. Opinions don't stand up to facts, which is why I would find it very interesting to read a report from somebody that has bred two snubnoses, and also why I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want their name on the experiment. Especially if it showed that the spawn resulted in normal fry.

If it resulted in all bullnoses I could however understand why somebody wouldn't want their name involved in the subject.

I think we have different approaches to finding the answer to something unknown

Post by **Barbie** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:50 pm

If you actually read that thread, it is repeatedly stated how unethical and wrong it would be to breed these fish. That has been the general consensus. Your changing directions and expecting someone to come forward and give details of the circumstances after being so negative previously is admirable. How do you assure that everyone else involved will have such a sudden change of heart? I didn't say that I personally wouldn't share any results I had. I said that I wouldn't expect anyone else to after the bashing that's gone on. It's definitely in the species reproductions best interest to resolve the issue. I've always said the fish were just injured, so I'm not exactly sure where it comes into play to question my approach. I was merely stating that I doubt anyone current on the forum would want to come forward with their experience after all the discussion that's gone before, and that I, personally, don't blame them.

Obviously the point I was trying to make with my post is being lost in all this anyway. Hopefully I'll be wrong and GW's friend will want to speak up and noone will need to worry about why they potentially wouldn't.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:48 pm

I have not changed direction. I have repeatedly said that the issue should be investigated, but it should be done by an experienced breeder. I have also said that it's too early to generally encourage breeding bulldogs.

I'm having a hard time understanding your reasoning, and as usual, your irony.

kkorotev · Post by **kkorotev** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:40 pm

I have a few old opinions about this subject...and a new one. I think I even expressed them in a long winded response a few months ago...but in fairness to the original poster, I will repeat:
I believe:
The snubnose effect is 100% environmental and avoidable. It occurs when a hatching fry damages itself breaking (from) the eggshell. The trouble seems to occur with eggshells that are overly thick, which seems most likely to occur when the female is housed in overly hard water. Zebras will spawn in darn near any water...but the eggs can be infertile (sperm having the same trouble the fry has, in reverse) or the shells can be too hard if they develop in the female while she's cycling in hard water.

The second cause of the snubnose effect can happen separately or in tandem with the hard water scenario. It happens when eggs are removed from the male's care before hatching. Part of his job is to assist the fry out of the egg. He can actually start the process by wearing the shell down or even splitting it himself. If you remove the eggs from his care AND raise you adults in hard water, you'll get snubnose fry for certain.

No. I have not spawned a snub-nose to prove my point because there is no need to. If you are getting snub nose fry, soften the water and leave the eggball alone until hatching. Done. No more snubnose(s). This fix does work (is this, then, proof?) and although I'd be a fool to guarantee it 100% of the time, it has worked, repeatedly, for me.

Also for consideration: If the effect were genetic, why weren't we discussing this with the wild fish we used to buy?

Although there are various degrees of the visible effect, if there is ANY visible evidence, the effect then exists in the animal...and the damage is done. "Degrees" of the effect, or to say the effect doesn't look like the "true" snubnose is...well, it simply misses the point.

Finally, I'd like to submit this last opinion about the breeding of snubnose
adults. I'm not sure it will happen. More accurately; I don't think a pair, where the MALE is the snubnosed adult, will successfully produce large, regular batchs of fry. The reason is stated above. His job is to care for the eggs and help them hatch. He does this with his #1 tool; his mouth.
If the mouth has been at all damaged in the same accident that causes his snubbed nose (and how can it not?)...he may not be capable of the entire set of paternal responsibilities.

Kevin Korotev
Milwaukee, WI USA