Bullnose? What do you think?

arobles34 · Post by **arobles34** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 11:53 pm

Looks like my post has been high jacked....

It’s ok though, I'm glad I could spur such spirited dialog....please continue.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 12:48 pm

kkorotev wrote:Finally, I'd like to submit this last opinion about the breeding of snubnose
adults. I'm not sure it will happen. More accurately; I don't think a pair, where the MALE is the snubnosed adult, will successfully produce large, regular batchs of fry. The reason is stated above. His job is to care for the eggs and help them hatch. He does this with his #1 tool; his mouth.
If the mouth has been at all damaged in the same accident that causes his snubbed nose (and how can it not?)...he may not be capable of the entire set of paternal responsibilities.

This is a very important point, which reinforce my opinion that people should not be encouraged to includ deformed fish in their breeding project.

Thank you for your factual posting

Sorry about the hijack arobles34! There's strong opinions regarding snubnoses here on the forum. Say "Snubnose" or "Price" and a discussion is sure to follow

Heliophobe · Post by **Heliophobe** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:37 pm

Why is one person asked for published articles and one person thanked for a factual post?

kkorotev clearly stated this was his opinion. Not saying he couldn't be 100% correct. Just that he didn't present it as fact.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:07 pm

That is to a certain degree true. It's simply becuase I couldn't find a word to express a non emotional to the point opinion. English is my second language, and I sometimes come short of words.

It's still not quite the same thing, someone having the experience of breeding two bullnoses, and someone expressing an opinion. In the first case it's something that is said to have happened, and it's only natural to ask for more information as, like we all know, this is a hot issue

Heliophobe · Post by **Heliophobe** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:33 pm

GWchat never said he bred bullnoses. He also stated that until proven true we all have to choose which information we deem credible. He is a respected breeder and fishkeeper. I am inclined to take his experience speaking with another breeder at his word but that is my choice to do so.

I do not know of kkorotev but his theory is quite interesting. The only question I would have is if the mouth is too damaged/deformed to manipulate eggs i would assume they would have at least some difficulty manipulating food. Yet the only snub I have seen in person was far from a runt. It was actually bigger than many from the same batch. And I have yet to see a picture of an "unhealthy" snub.

Until either gwchat or kkorotev can provide proof of their assertions/theories, they should both be treated equally. Not doing so will, as Barbie mentioned, make some people hesitant to post their experiences. Of course, that is my opinion.....

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:07 pm

Heliophobe wrote: Until either gwchat or kkorotev can provide proof of their assertions/theories, they should both be treated equally. Not doing so will, as Barbie mentioned, make some people hesitant to post their experiences. Of course, that is my opinion.....

Like I said, I wasn't referring to the content of the post, but in the manner it was presented. I'm not convinced it's due to enviromental only, that's why I keep saying "be careful". On the other hand, it doesn't really matter what is causing it, I don't think a deformed speciment should be bred.

When that's said, there's still a difference between voicing an opinion and making a statement. There's naturally not the same need for documentation for an opinion as it is for a statement. An opinion doesn't need documentation at all actually. A statement of fact does if somebody asks for it.

I still understand what you mean, I know several people that are hesitant to post on some other catfish forums, because they are afraid of being jumped upon. I sincerely hope that never happens to this forum, and that my original request for documentation wasn't percieved as being jumped on.

jackal · Post by **jackal** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:16 am

I'm new here (lurked for a while) and I would say that, as someone who would like to one day breed zebras myself, this is a facinating discussion. You are all very passionate and that is a good thing. I don't think anyone should be offended by what is said. The more points of view and the more discussion the better. The one thing that is clear is that everyone here wants the best for this species and these kind of discussions will help to ensure that this happens. Whatever the cause of the 'snubbed nose' the answers will only be found by engaging in these types of passionate discussions and when qualified researchers are inspired enough by them to do the research into the causes. In the end the zebras will benefit from your passion. Keep it up!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:33 am

Hi I Appologise for joining this late, but I am once again working away, with limited access. I would also like to appologise for this very brief post, but as I said limited access. I will address this situation and comment fully upon my return home.

In short, I am unaware fo any "Published" articles on such a subject to date, specifically geared towards hypancistrus. Hence why opinion and experience is what is required. Afterall "Published articles are based upon experience and often opinion of experienced individuals. I for one would like to vouch for Kevin as being possibley one fo the foremost experienced breeders I have had the pleasure of discussing this subject with.

It is evident that Opinion varies on this subject, but it does appear that we are getting closer to a conclusion as there are experienced breeders out there who are experienceing this situation.

I think we need to continue to keep this discussion positive.

I will have a proper read through and add my bit to the contect upon my return on Friday. My appologies once again.

Rob

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:11 pm

Hi jackal, thanks for your input. It is an interesting issue, and hopefully we'll get a definate answer to it in the end.

Welcome to the forum!

smithrc · Post by **smithrc** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 12:37 pm

Has anyone come across snubs in other plecs??

The hard water theory stands up to my own, limited scientific, scrutiny but our water is hard...
We've bread lots of other egg layers Tetras, Danios etc and 4 different bristlenoses and have not had any problems with deformities. If this was the case with Zebras, surely it would apply to other fish also - especially other plecs...

We have not softened the water used in any of these successful spawns...

Our L129 hypancistrus are now mature enough to breed, fingers cross I'll let you know some findings (with hardness recorded)

{Edit} answered on the LONG thread - sorry

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 1:26 pm

smithrc wrote:Has anyone come across snubs in other plecs??

Yes. There is a picture of an Ancistrus bullnose here:
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... &start=105

And it's also been found in Baryancistrus:

http://www.aquanet.de/beitraege/Fachbei ... 800666.asp

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 7:01 pm

Ok... HI everyone

I'm back, and feel like I have missed out on a rather valuable discussion.

There is no doubt in my mind that the breeding of these fish should be done with care.. initially. Every piece of advice, opinion and experience is of value at this stage because there quite simply is not the infomation out there at this point in time, to come to a definate conclusion.

As McEve states we must be carefull in breeding such specimens as we do not have a definate understanding of the outcome.

Speaking from a "Site" point of view, it would be irresponsible of us to shout from the roof tops..."Breed them..they'll be fine". However, what we cannot do is tell people not to breed them as we have no evidence to suggest that re-occurence will happen, (obviously depending on it not being a re-occuring environmental factor).

I think what is important, and what has been proven by the passion and interest in this topic is that if anyone was to breed these fish the results should be carefully noted and shared.

Just as KKortev, GWchat and many others have expressed opinions, it is this form of discussion that will assist in bringing this "Question" to a conclusion.

From a personal point of view, I would say if you must breed them go ahead but do not see it as a definate way of introducing fish onto the market palce, or creating new breeding stock.

I currently have one female bullnose that I bred and will indeed breed from her. Wehn the ytime comes however I will undoubtedly seek as much advice from such peole as Kevin, GWchat, Barbie and Mceve as to reduce the environmental chances of it re-occuring.

Thank you all for this very informative wee chat!

Im off to a wedding!!!!!!!!

rob

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Fri Jan 27, 2006 9:48 pm

It's till interesting though, as smithrc pointed out, about Ancistrus and bullnose. They're being bred under all sorts of conditions, and even though we know they can get snubnoses too, I've never heard of this being a problem.

It seems to be more common amongst Zebras than both Ancistrus, and say L260. L260 is being bred quite excessively, and under different conditions (water), but this problem doesn't seem to be as common amongst them either?

gwchat · Post by **gwchat** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:44 am

Hi All, I promised I would get back to you with either an answer from the gentleman that I mentioned knowing has bred snubs or would try and get him to sign on. I have been talking with him on and off for the past week and a half and he has ckecked out the thread and he has chosen to not be part of the discussion. I was more than a little disappointed with his decision because of the things he has to offer in the way of information of care and breeding the species as a whole. He has been actively breeding Zebras since 1995 and has literally bred 100's if not close to a 1000 Zebras in that amount of time. He does not believe that snubs are genetic in anyway shape or form, but does feel that it is completely an enviromental issue. He feels the reason it shows up in some peoples tanks more than others is not because one person is taking better care of their fish than they other person or that it has to do with an injury suffered early on in it's life. He is stead fast in the belief that it has to do with the disovled oxygen that the eggs are exposed to during incubation. If a male is a poor father and is not taking care of the egg mass properly then there is a chance that you will get a higher ratio of snubs from that batch as apposed to others. Whether it has to do with just fanning water over the eggs or if it has to do with rolling the eggs over a certain amount of times during incubation, If that one egg was deprived slight less oxygen then that may be the precurser to snubbies. Has there been and article writen Yes. is it done NO. It will be published when it is finished and all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. I did what I could, these are from notes I took from phone calls with him and info he said was ok for me to post. I do apologize for getting people off subjet from the original subject, but as a Zebra breeder myself I agree it is a very important topic and can not wait to read the article when it comes out.

Thanks,
GW

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:40 am

Thank you very much for your very informative post and efforts.

Keep an eye on that article for us!!

Rob.

P.s. Could youput your location in your profile. cheers!