Not so wild Zebras

Post by **Barbie** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:38 pm

Well anyone can SAY they have zebras for sale for that price. That's the part I don't believe. It's just my opinion, I'm ok with us not agreeing

.

This seller doesn't answer emails consistently with the same information and on PC it says that an auction that was won earlier was never completed. What does that tell you?

Barbie

Plastic Mac · Post by **Plastic Mac** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:53 pm

This is from a previous post on page 1.

zeberdy wrote: As to why the low price tag..honest answer is I just don't know! There are rumours (and I have not been told this directly from the supplier) that they actually want to flood the market so as it puts any small time breeders out of the picture and leaves the market theirs alone. I have tryed to reason this out for myself and the only reason might be that the demand for Zebras is so great that they can actually make with the help of the hormones more money by selling them in huge qty's.

Sorry I just re-read this again and wanted to bring up some points.

Flooding the market with something which is able to reproduce itself, assuming care is taken, is not a good way to make money and put small breeders out of the picture. This is a very short term business plan...depending on the size they are being sold at you are potentialy creating many more small time breeders. So even if you sold them before they were able to reproduce, your only able to hold that market for 2-3 years max and it would take that long at least to put the small time breeders out of business (that is assuming they were in it for the business to begin with and not for the love of it).
The only situation I can see in which that would work is if the fish in question were sterile (possibly due to the hormones used).

discusbabe wrote:I don't think there is any overreacting going on here if that helps and as I have received a copy of an email with this information in from back in May I certainly suspect there is something fishy going on, pardon the pun!

I suppose I was so excited at the prospect of getting some Zebra plecs at a cheaper price than the ones that are normally seen on ebay etc that I kind of ignored the fact that it was too good to be true! It has to be at the end of the day IMO!

Something isn't right and at this rate there will be over 80 Zebra Plecs being bought via this seller and who knows why they are so cheap but there has to be a reason!

It's certainly not your fault for wanting to take advantage of what seems, and possibly still is a very good deal. Whether you still want to buy them after this though is a matter for you to decide.

madmorrocan wrote:Can I make a formal request to the mods to create a webpage on this site to warn potential buyers about the use of hormones?

Yes I know that there is a separate forum for this request, but I feel that it would get more attention on this topic.

Also, is there any scientific way to prove that these fish are indeed hormone treated fish? The reason I ask is because we can stop speculating and make serious allegations stick against these idiots who are creating a crisis and risking our hobby by polluting it with inferior fish.

I'm not sure a webpage is such a good idea until we are aware of what hormones have been used and what their immediate and possible long term effects are. It is also very diffcult for a potential buyer to discover whether he or she is buying potentially hormone treated fish. Although one could, assuming all of is true of course, make an assumption based on the price like the case in question. However if the seller sold his hormonally treated fish at the usual price...would we be any the wiser? I don't think it's then too great a leap to assume that it could potentially start preventing people lowering their prices, because when they do the are constantly being accused of treating their fish with hormones.
I think if such a step where to be taken then hard facts are needed first. We should probably all learn a bit more about the hormones which can and are used on fish as well as their effects before we start preaching. I know at present when it comes to hormones being used on fish, as much as I'm totally against it....I have no actual knowledge of hormones except the usual scare tactic propangda I've heard a thousand times about a thousand things.

discusbabe · Post by **discusbabe** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:49 pm

Thanks Plastic Mac for your comments on my situation, I have wanted to help try and conserve this species for a while now after getting hooked on plecs and for me to buy fish under unusual or suspect circumstances feels very awkward! I am not flash with cash, my hubby pays for my hobby at the end of the day!

But he understands why I want to keep and hopefully breed this beauty and has been incredibly understanding and is happy for me to get a group of them with the aim of doing this.

I do not want fish that may not be 100% fit for whatever reason and the price put on these particular fishes head makes me question this.

The jury is still out here! I am awaiting any response back from the seller still and even when that comes through there will still be more questions! One day I will get my dream but I am not sure this seller will be the supplier!

zeberdy · Post by **zeberdy** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:02 pm

Barbie wrote:Well anyone can SAY they have zebras for sale for that price. That's the part I don't believe. It's just my opinion, I'm ok with us not agreeing .

This seller doesn't answer emails consistently with the same information and on PC it says that an auction that was won earlier was never completed. What does that tell you?

Barbie

I don't think any of us quite believe that price and we must all make up our own minds and are own opinions..I'm all for that

This is from a previous post on page 1.

zeberdy wrote:
As to why the low price tag..honest answer is I just don't know! There are rumours (and I have not been told this directly from the supplier) that they actually want to flood the market so as it puts any small time breeders out of the picture and leaves the market theirs alone. I have tryed to reason this out for myself and the only reason might be that the demand for Zebras is so great that they can actually make with the help of the hormones more money by selling them in huge qty's.

Sorry I just re-read this again and wanted to bring up some points.

Flooding the market with something which is able to reproduce itself, assuming care is taken, is not a good way to make money and put small breeders out of the picture. This is a very short term business plan...depending on the size they are being sold at you are potentialy creating many more small time breeders. So even if you sold them before they were able to reproduce, your only able to hold that market for 2-3 years max and it would take that long at least to put the small time breeders out of business (that is assuming they were in it for the business to begin with and not for the love of it).
The only situation I can see in which that would work is if the fish in question were sterile (possibly due to the hormones used).

Like I said I don't have all the answers but my reasoning for that statement is based on the information given and assuming this is correct that hormones are being used which can as you rightly say plastic mac creeate sterile fish

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:37 am

madmoroccan wrote:Can I make a formal request to the mods to create a webpage on this site to warn potential buyers about the use of hormones?

I think this is a brilliant idea. We have a section called articles, and anyone can contribute to this section. I can see that you guys have already gathered quite a lot of info about hormon bred fish. Where they come from, how the hormones are distributed to the fish (they can get it through the food too I would imagine) and why.

Consequenses of using hormones to breed fish, and last but not least, what to look out for so you do not end up with a hormonbred possible infertile fish, that never grow to their full potential.

Gather the info, and organize it in an article for the site! That would be fantastic! And, we are a community with one aim, to keep the stock healthy. Can't leave it all up to the mods, we work on the site all the time to keep things tidy, looking good and brainstorming with improvements to the site as our aim all the time.

Get your forces together, regroup, divide the different sections between you and write an article that people will never forget they read!

blueblue · Post by **blueblue** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:47 am

as far as i know, many fish farms in the mainland China, Thailand, Malaysia, etc do use hormones. The usual practice is to buy the "male hormone" for human, dilute with some amount of water (i know the amount but it is NOT a good idea to tell as using hormones is definitely a bad practice), then mix with food and feed the fish... The key objectives of this trick is to enhance the colour of some fish, such as Discus and other cichlids, and/or speed up the growth rate. This act will yield especially colourful fish which either cannot reproduce or can only reproduce in a much reduced quantity with less healthy offspring...

madmoroccan · Post by **madmoroccan** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:59 am

Hi all,

I don't mean to sound like I am preaching... I would be the first to acknowledge somebody who is forcing prices down, I am 100% in favour... The problem here is that I find something strange about the manner that the trader has gone about it. It seems like the wheeler dealer has come to town and he/she is selling L46.

I think it is naive to say that just because plecos aren't usually treated with hormones that this can never happen... If somebody is capable of thinking about dying fish, then why won't somebody mess about with growth hormones too?

All I am saying is that we should tread with caution. That is all.

zeberdy · Post by **zeberdy** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:15 am

madmoroccan wrote:Hi all,

I don't mean to sound like I am preaching... I would be the first to acknowledge somebody who is forcing prices down, I am 100% in favour... The problem here is that I find something strange about the manner that the trader has gone about it. It seems like the wheeler dealer has come to town and he/she is selling L46.

I think it is naive to say that just because plecos aren't usually treated with hormones that this can never happen... If somebody is capable of thinking about dying fish, then why won't somebody mess about with growth hormones too?

All I am saying is that we should tread with caution. That is all.

I think you have hit the nail on the head madmoroccan.

At the end of the day there will always be people in this world who will try to make money out any opportunities they see potential in. One thing nearly all on here have agreed on is that selling these plecs at a fraction of the market price does sound too good to be true. Even if you do not believe the hormone theory then this post has at least made you question it and question it..thats never a bad thing to do. If this is not hormone treated fish then this could well be a con and as Barbie rightly said "Well anyone can SAY they have zebras for sale for that price" . It would not be the first time a scam has occured around the zebra.

Caution is never a bad thing.

dave · Post by **dave** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:25 am

Well said Plastic Mac, re price and would we be any the wiser.

And the information that I have is what Blue Blue said that Asia and Germany have first choice of the fish, in addition to this within the Asiatic market the Japanese get 1st choice because of the prices they are prepared to pay ( Perhaps Blue Blue you could confirm or refute the latter ).

Logic to me, makes me think that any tank bred fish in significant numbers will come from Germany until the Asiatic market is at least satisfied.

Illegally exported fish are likely to carry a premium.

As a general rule if something is offered for sale at well below the market value, there will be suspicions and doubt about it's origin, or in the case of antiques whether it is genuine. If in addition there are rumours circulating, combining the rumours with the sale price is very dangerous.

If allegations are made, inferred or in anyway shown to have been the cause of a consequential loss, litigation may well follow.

While individual members may offer constructive or destructive criticism (These get removed) to each other, these are unlikely to lead to any form of litigation.

When dealing with businesses the likelihood is greatly increased.

In personal cases there is little doubt where liability lies, but when it is a forum on the internet I have no idea, but I would be surprised if it was not the forum itself.

As for buying fish blindly, or even from a retailer their origin is unlikely to be known for certain nor is their parentage so a chance is being taken and it is up to the individual.

My suggestion is that if you do take this chance, at the first sign of abnormality, or a high percentage of deformed fry just place them in a community tank with small tetras.

My feeling is that without people taking this chance, (Barbie refers to people who have hundreds) reputable breeders on a commercial scale, who do not want their whereabouts or methods disclosing are ruled out.

Dave

AndyAps.com · Post by **AndyAps.com** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:15 pm

ok here's my 2 pence worth.........

I recently went to germany to collect a breeding group of zebs (13) from a bredder selling up due to marital problems. while there he took me to one of his local breeders/lfs shops, i can confirm the best fish go to germany and asia, the tanks were full of rare fish especially plecos, he had 20 zebra's and he had an 11inch Blue eyed pleco, the first time i have ever seen one real life (absolutley stunning with a bright blue eye), despite offering him double the price for the fish he wouldnt sell as he had promised to export it to china. he told me he sends all his rare fish there and would continue doing so as he didnt want to upset them by refusing!!! so i can confirm germany and asia get best fish......

Ok the tricky bit.....please hear me out before casting assumptions and personal attacks...............
I currently have a colony of 18 zebra plecos
5 of them have been in my tanks for over 2 years, the other 13 from germany 3 months ago...........
having tried and failed to breed the original 5 on many occasions i gave up and thought about hormones......i will just make it clear that i have NEVER actually used them........basically i didnt know much about hormones apart from asia uses them alot in fish farms........i spent a long time gathering information type, quantity, best practice and side effects and so on.......and on having read and understood all this i decioded it was very wrong to subject the fish to this treatment and so bought another 13 zebs and am happily trying to do it the natural way (i say happily cos i love watching them wether they are breeding or not).

I will put together an article based on the information i have found and also post the links from where i got my information from, im not going to tell everyone the doses and how to administer etc, because as blueblue says, some unscruplous sorts will try and use it.

Also back on topic, i cant see the guys on ebay advertising fish they dont have, or are not going to ship, this would benefit them in no way whatso ever, it would actually cause them problems with their ebay feedback etc.
i also cant see them selling cut price zebs "at a loss" to make up money on other ares.....margins in fish are fairly small anyway so it wouldnt work.

As mentioned earlier about it not being a market they can control.......if the fish are hormone bred they will more than likely be sterile and thus produce no spawns, which means they can continue selling and cornering the market. people will however hopefully realise and not buy from them.

It is upto the individual wether they want to purchase sterile fish to admire in a tank of tetra's and not breed or wether people want to buy wild caught (when ban lifts) or genuine F1's form members of this forum.

It is also possible that germans or asia have bought many zeb's before the ban and have bred them and produced many fry which is entirley possible, (german tap water in many areas has better readings than evian bottled water, Me and my breeder over there tested this when i went). the fry could no be being sold........this however does not explain the silly price tags.........

The mystery goes on.........has anyone actually recieved fish at this price?

Raul-7 · Post by **Raul-7** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:30 pm

Anyone willing to be the guinea pig to test to see if they are infact sterile/hormone-injected or fertile/natural? That should put the debate to rest.

As someone already mentioned, it wouldn't do the seller any good to scam via eBay, unless of course he's stupider than we assumed.

blueblue · Post by **blueblue** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:39 pm

dave wrote:And the information that I have is what Blue Blue said that Asia and Germany have first choice of the fish, in addition to this within the Asiatic market the Japanese get 1st choice because of the prices they are prepared to pay ( Perhaps Blue Blue you could confirm or refute the latter ).

Hi Dave, you are right, Japan used to get the highest quality fish
even though there are some reputable traders in the region which can also get the best fish in a huge quantity such as Brasil Aquarium in Taiwan (this store currently also has wildcaught L46 to sell, of course,
at the full market price).

discusbabe · Post by **discusbabe** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:19 pm

Raul-7 wrote:Anyone willing to be the guinea pig to test to see if they are infact sterile/hormone-injected or fertile/natural? That should put the debate to rest.

As someone already mentioned, it wouldn't do the seller any good to scam via eBay, unless of course he's stupider than we assumed.

Well I may be getting 6 from him, fish first, payment later! Whether or not they turn up is another thing but we shall see and I will let you all know if they turn up! The guy does seem pretty genuine from my conversations with him and the fact he has said ok to have them collected etc so we shall see.

madmoroccan · Post by **madmoroccan** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:55 pm

Good luck DiscusBabe, let us know how you get on. I really want these fish to be the real deal... That would have the desired effect on current prices...

discusbabe · Post by **discusbabe** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:05 pm

Thanks Madmoroccan I will keep the forum up to date!

Hopefully they will be the real deal but if not then, well there we go!

Not so wild Zebras

Hi

Re: Hi