They won't stop dying!!

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:13 pm

I've noticed that too - that they seem to come out of hiding when they don't feel too well. Strangest thing isn't it.... But if that can be inerpreted as a sign nothing is better, as it gives you a warning.

I'm so sorry to hear you lost so many wandj

Thye can perish quite rapidly if there is an ammonia or nitrite spike. I was going to pick up three zebra's for a swingers party tomorrow

, but they died yesterday

. There was a prawn left uneaten and not discovered until too late. The nitrite reading was 200 in the tank.

But.. as your readings are all fine, that can't be the problem in your tank... Do you have an LFS with a microscope near you? Maybe they can take a scraping off one of the remaining fish and see if there's a parasite at work.

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:22 pm

There is a LFS close by, but they are so small I don't think they would know what to do. I just medicated the tank with Metrodizonole or however it's spelled and plain ol'e fungus cure. There is only one Zebra left that is still hiding and the one that just came out (to die?). I did a small water change too. This is so weird. Even dead, their colors look fine and all. No sign of anything wrong. They are just coming out of hiding one by one and kicking the bucket....in this last tank anyway. I also turned up the filter to full blast. I usually run them on low (they have an adjustment dial). Now with the meds in there, I am giving them extra water movement. THey also have an air stone and a sponge filter. So I've said this many times...what the heck? I thought all the tanks were ok now, but just this last one is giving trouble still. Do I have to take 4 years of fish school to figure this out? I can only think that they are still dying off from what ever bugged them in the first place. I heard some fish take a few days to die. I thought I read this from Barbie once...that ammonia or Nitrate may make a fish suffer with that stuff in their blood for a few days and then they die. I am not quoting her, but I think that was the idea. She replied to me once when I got a shipment of DOAs and the Nitrates were throught the roof. THose ones died during the night. ANyway, this is starting to PISS ME OFF!

Scuze my lang ladies and gentlemen.

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:24 pm

Oh yah... you said "swingers party"?
MCEVE!!! You just shot your wholesome, innocent image.

You mean the parties where you swap partners? Uh, that's more info than I needed to know.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:28 pm

For the Zebras! Not the for the people!

And I'm sorry I can't help you

It must be awful sitting there watching them die.... do you have a spare tank you could kick start with water, gravel and filter media from a healthy tank?

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:43 pm

Ha ha, ok you're off the hook. You are a nice, innocent wholesome girl.
The Zebras....bad fish!

I have a lot of spare tanks right now. I could move him, but do you think it will help? I sure would like to know what is doing all this.

Thanks.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:52 pm

it's hard to say since we don't know what's causing it. I know I wouldn't move the fish to another tank with Zebras in it. Just in case whatever it is is something contagious.

I don't know wandj

I hope somebody else might have some input for you!

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:16 pm

Wandj,

I'm clutching at straws here but I have a couple of suggestions.

Try stripping the substrate out of the tank followed by a large water change.

Check your water for high nitrates as I believe you use well water. Nitrates can become high in well water due to it seeping into the water table from farmed land that is heavily fertilised.

I have seen zebras that have displayed all the symptoms that yours do and the root cause was a high nitrate reading. They died too even though large water changes were done immediately, it looked like the damage had already been done.

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:02 pm

Yes, I agree the damage is done. Just waiting for the storm to be over. All these tanks are bare bottom. And I don't see any rotten food anywhere. I do have some large stones, but they are easy to move around when I vac the bottom. Don't know....it is winter here so there is no activity on any farmland right now. There is one field to the west of me, but it is hayland and my nitrates read ok anyway. To the east of my is government land which is all forest, and then the North Saskatchewan River. To the north is farmland, but nothing to the south of me. I have checked my raw tap water for nitrates already, and it is clear as hell. I have added a low dose of "Ick cure" to the tanks just in case it's ick. I know my Rainbow fry would get sick...drop like flies for a week. I added Ick meds and it cured it all up. I notice on some fish, that even though you don't see it, the Ick meds fix the problem. And my Rainbow fry would also gasp a touch. And I know it's not an O2 problem. Like I said, sponge filters in every tank, and airstone, and a large internal filter. Most tanks are only 20g so I am airing the hell out of them. I'll keep ya all posted. There is a Zebra out in the open still. I try to touch it and it moves, so it's still alive. And I notice that some of the Zebras will sometimes wave their fins constantly....is this normal?

KenW · Post by **KenW** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:57 pm

Wandj,

Can you have your well water checked for contaminates, metals, pesticides, herbacides etc., to see if anything is high or unusual. I wonder if it could be something in the well water causing this. Maybe zebras are more sensitive to metals. Just a thought.

Ken

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 12:25 am

Sounds bad Wandj. I hope no more die!

My concern now would be you seem to be using a lot of treatments without knowing what is causing the deaths. When chemicals are used like this and the fish are very stressed, which yours obviously are, it can often make things worse. I don't wish to worry you further but always use chemicals as a last resort.

If your fish do have an illness of some form I am betting it is systemic and will be very hard to treat unless you use antibiotics. However, these often need to be prescribed by a vet and are very strong.

My guess is that something is or has polluted your water. I would personally install a much filteration matieral that absorbs harmful pollutants. Polyfilters, zeolite activated carbon etc etc.

Have you used any sprays or paints in your house recently?

Hope you don't lose anymore.

Ed_R · Post by **Ed_R** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:45 am

It definitely sounds like a pesticide or other bad thing in the water supply- but if it is, any other tanks she has woudl also be losing fish.

Post by **Barbie** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:07 am

The shipment of fish that you got with fish dying had NITRITES in the bag. Only one way to get those, out of the water in the tank they were netted from. Did you ever get actual readings for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in your tanks you're losing zebras in? I realize it sounds like I'm beating a dead horse, but I STILL say you're fighting an uncycled filter, or bacterial crash (all the shotgunned meds won't be helping, but actually hurting this, btw). Get me the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings for the tanks?

Damage caused by ammonia can take a few days to kill fish. They act itchy and uncomfortable, sometimes flashing against things. They are prone to septicemia at that point also, read streaks in the fins and rotting away at the edges. Nitrite poisoning tends to interrupt the bloods ability to carry oxygen, so the fish literally suffocate. Addition of salt can help with that. I haven't offered advice because I asked for those readings and have been waiting to try to guess at the problem. Ammonia or nitrite levels would be continually peaking between water changes without established filter media added in.

These fish are expensive to replace. If it was me, I'd go buy the kits you couldn't find so you aren't shooting in the dark trying to solve the problem. I'm sorry if that sounds brutal, but honestly, those are readings you need to KNOW, not be guessing at.

Barbie

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 3:37 am

I have taken readings, but at the time, I was doing emergency water changes, cleaning filters, etc. I can't even remember in what order I did what. The water is fine now....In fact, I just did another small water change on most of the tanks just so that the levels are zero for sure.

There is still one fish hanging out in the open. Only one...all the others are fine. I spent all evening sucking up any stuff on the bottom, checking the health of all the rest (look ok).
I have been harrassing the survivor a little bit....nudging it to see if it is still alive. (It can't hurt at this point) If what Barbie said is right, the damage is done and there is nothing I can do. And all these tanks have been running and just fine for months, so they are not new tanks. The sponge filters alone are at least 4 months old because they were seeded long before the tanks even had fish in them. I use KCl pellets in my water softener, but I don't see how it has anything to do with this....I've been using KCl for about a month. Is there anyone else out there using KCl?

I won't bother using any more meds. It is a waste of time.

And yes, a little while ago now, I did say earlier that there were red streaks in the fins. So I think Barbie is right...I just have to deal with the aftermath. The only thing that could have caused a few deaths is the filters....cleaning them, them being dirty, turning them on/off. It is too late for me to go back and write everything down step by step, what I did, didn't do, when, why, how, etc.

I expect that one last Zebra to die....it looks fine other than its behavior of hanging around in the open AND it is slow to move when I nudge it. It has lost its flight response. But it looks normal.

I don't know man!

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 4:05 am

I just took more readings. But I know they are not indicative of what happened earlier because it's been 3 or 4 days now and I have done a few water changes.

Ammonia .6
Nitrates 0
Nitrites 0

I think the little guy is on his last fin. I can pick him up and just when I think he's a stiff and ready to pull him out, he gives a little twitch.

Just a matter of time. I still don't know how all this got to be such a big loss.

Anyway, this has not been fun.

wandj · Post by **wandj** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:08 am

HEY HEY HEY EVERYBODY!!

I think I know what it was that kiboshed some of my Zebras.

I was lying in bed and I was thinking about all this. I remeber that when I was doing one of my water changes on some of the tanks BEFORE any of this started, I noticed that the water coming out of my lines into my tanks was a very slight milky color. I then remembered that I had just re-filled the salt (KCl) in my water softener. It is the first time I refilled it. It was pretty low. Maybe adding the new salt stirred everthing up in the brine tank and that was what caused the milky color. It really is hard to remember all this because it didn't phase me at the time. But I do remember seeing a slight milky color to the water going in and I remember thinking to myself...."that' strange". Now...what was causing the milky color that killed some of my fish if that was what is was? And, the milky color was only there ONE DAY...the same day I refilled my brine tank and did a couple water changes. Ok, you guys, I think I'm onto something....do you think maybe it was a shot of Chlorine? I'm not good with this, but I can't see how Potassium could have caused this reaction. Does anyone know how a fish acts when exposed to Chlorine? It must have been the milky water....what was in it? So, whatever went on, my new rule is to never do a water change after I"ve added new salt to the water softener. (Any other time the water is fine)

Does this make sense? Anyone see this before? Or am I wrong and just grabbing straws? Maybe the water was harmless, but I just remembered all this now.