L46 Leave alone !!

[Sojapat]

Posts: 4
Location: Tain
Posted: Mon May 23, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: L46 are better off in Xingu

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I have been in the aquatic trade for 18 years ,
If the people who evaluate the numbers of fish in
the wild say they are not to be exported it is to
PROTECT the species , in its habitat ..
The Zebras need recovery time ..
By all means sell tank raised fish THATS GREAT !
The notion that wild fish are better protected in a 25 gallon
fishtank with a powerfilter is rubbish
Also there are people out there who will collect one fish just so
they have a set of L codes ...THESE DONT BREED ON THEIR OWN
Been there seen very few fish of L 46 .Xingu

[Dan D' Man]

I can see Brazil's point of view of L046's needing natural recovery time. That is just logical due to overharvesting. What is not logical is the possibility of building a hydroelectric dam right on the Xingu, which could wipe out the entire Zebra population. If that is the case, then you better believe that the only Zebras left alive would be the ones in aquariums. I live in South Florida and even in winter the temp of well water, ponds & lakes just drops to 75F. I hope there will come the time when I have enough of these little guys to drop a few in my pond and hope to start a natural population in the USA . This is just my 2 cents worth.

[McEve]

I've seen several have stated that the Zebra won't survive the building of this dam, but is this documented somewhere? I've also seen people stating that they will survive the dam. I'm just wondering what the reason for them not making it would be? They can live up to rather large dephts, and don't need the strong current to survive. They need very oxygenated water, but aren't dependent on the current itself.

So what are the reasons they won't survive if the dam is buildt? Given that it's buildt downstream where they live of course, and if not - that the dam isn't making the river completely dry

[Dan D' Man]

So what are the reasons they won't survive if the dam is buildt? Given that it's buildt downstream where they live of course, and if not - that the dam isn't making the river completely dry

I've read somewhere that similar projects were built in Brazil with disastrous consequences for some fish species. I would have to search for the specific article. Meanwhile I can tell you from my own experience how hydroelectric dams work. Under construction, part or all of the water is diverted until the dam is completed. The remaining water carries a lot of debris downstream. When the dam opens it goes from 1-2 feet to 30 feet plus, in one day! I personally witness this in the Gatun Lake in what used to be called the US Canal Zone, in Panama. It also happened in the Miraflores and Chagres rivers in Panama. I used to fish as a kid for snook, right next to the Gatun dam. Fishing was great, caught a few fish almost 2 feet in length. When it was natural level, fishing was great. Then they dried up the lake to about 1 -2 feet, then 30+ feet (don't ask me why), then back to an average of 15 feet, it's regular depth. Needless to say, all the fish were gone. I went down snorkeling, to see if I could find anything...just some small fish, crabs, shrimps, nothing big or spawning. I came back several years & had to abandon that fishing spot. When it rose to 30 feet, it wasnt a "natural current", it was more like Niagara Falls or a man-made Tsunami & it lasted for several days. The view was spectacular, but the effect was disastrous for fish. You do this to any body of water & see what happens to the ecosystem. Yes, people need electricity, but at the expense of the poor L046's? My brother is one of the engineers in charge of expansion of the Panama Canal, construction, planning, etc. I can assure you, when this goes on, concerns is money, manpower, effect on people, long & short term. Last thing they look or care about is fish, specially the ones for decoration.

[McEve]

That was very enlightning Dan, and also gave me some pretty scary pictures in my mind.

It sounds like it's the construction itself that will be the most disastrous point....

If the dam is indeed going to be buildt it sounds like a better idea to relocate them, but that might not be possible either..... Anyway, who'd be interested in spending money doing that

Doesn't look like there's an easy answer to this one!

Thanks again Dan

[Des]

Sojapat,

I Totally and 100% agree with you, and feel very strongly about this issue, hence my question regarding the ban, on another post. A few years ago they did the same ie restrict exports ,let the stocks replenish , and exports restarted.
The most unfortunate thing is that where there is a demand for banned species there will always be someone willing to take the risks to illegally fulfill that demand, whether it be Black Cockatoos from Australia, Hayacinthe Macaws from South America, Tigers from India,Orangatans from Asia , Chimpanzees from W.Africa etc,etc , tusks from Elephants and Rhino and various pelts from Wild game or even Wild L046............... all illegal. I believe you are in the fish trade, so You must be aware of some Exporters being jailed in Brazil for labelling wrong species/qtys on fish boxes ,a few months ago.
If Brazil (IBAMA) has put a species on a banned list, it was put on that list for a reason, because stocks are totally depleted, Is it right for us to decide whether they are better of in a tank, disregard the ban, and deplete the stocks even further, I personally don't think so.
Take for example the export ban of all Cockatoos from Australia, There are a lot in the West who would like a Roseatte or other type of Cockatoo at a reasonable price, however for the forseeable future this is only a dream, yet Australian Farmers kill these birds in their thousands, to stop them eating their crops. Is it right for us to say that it is better in a cage somewhere than being killed by some farmer. Sure, but we abide by their laws !!!!Some however try to smuggle eggs /young birds out of Oz. Fortunately, most however are caught.
Sorry for long rambling post.

Regards,
Des

[Sojapat]

Hi Buddy , I think these little fellows(L46) wont be shot for eating crops .
They are of no significance to the locals for anything except they get 15 times more per fish for them than any other fish with exeption of the black rays ,The dam is a few years away ?
The L46 can recover fairly quickly ? accoring to the fishermen .. 2 years .
Who knows but it dont make it right to smuggle ..
I personally hope that people who smuggle are caught .
I have fished in Rhondonia,Acre,Para(Xingu and Tapajos) and Amapa .
L 46 is battered in the wild ..
I own a shop . It would be good money for me to get the fish .
I WILL NOT .
I hope they dont appear for sale on this Site .

[Dan D' Man]

Sojapat; I don't think anybody here is advocating the smuggling of Zebras. That's not the issue. The point that I raise is what steps is the govt of Brazil taking to assure its survival when they build the dam. You bet it will be built..it is called progress. I've seen it one time too many in developing countries.

[Barbie]

*Moderating cap on*

Can we please keep this discussion in one spot? I feel it's more appropriate here in General Discussion, so I'll be locking the thread in the other forum about it. That way all of the points and posts get made in one place.

Barbie

[ChrisD]

Hi,

are the brazilian government doing anything to help the fish recover, ie a breed and release program to boost numbers? i've seen these kind of bans all over the place, but all too often nothing is done to help re-establish the species, and the species sometimes become worse off due to developments such as this dam.

Chris

[Rob]

This is tricky one, as there are varying reports concerning the depletion of zebra numbers, and the justification for the ban.

I personally feel that the ban should be respected, no matter what the reasoning behind it is. This is purely out of legal respect.

The Ban has apparently been imposed for one of two reasons:

1. The depletion in numbers, which has occured due to the following reasons: Gold Mining, and Mercury release into the water, which in turn "in theory", caused a massive algae bloom 3 years ago. This algae bloom wiped out massive numbers of fish and aquatic life, including zebras. Obviously overfishing has caused an effect, although this is difficult to quanitify. I personally feel it will have been enough to cause disruption ot the species.

2. The introduction of a new governing body dealing with the export of fish for the aquarist. When this governing body took over, it looked at what was being exported, and placed a ban on a huge number of L numbers, irresepective of population or rarety. This ban was enforced in order to gain tighter controls over exports. If this is the case it is extimated that the ban will be lifted over the next couple of years.

Where it gets complicated is obviously the proposed desimation of the existing habitat.

The Belo Monte damn has been on the horizon for some 10 years now. Each time an application has been made, it has been knocked back on environmental grounds. This application was passed however due to the fact that the governemnt "CANCELLED" the environmental impact assessment, stating it was not relevant. (Do not quote me on this as this is not something I can not substanciate, and should be taken as rumours, we can't afford to be sued )

The Brazilian Governement is receiving massive funding for this project, despite the fact it will only be 30% efficient. The problem being, it is the cheaper construction option.

Now for my personal crusade. Whilst I agree with the fact that all fishkeepers buy wild caught fish, I feel that if there is alternative captive bred fish, it should take presedence. This is easy for me to say as it in the early days of breeding. As yet there are no problems with inbreeding, or low immunity.

For now however, I think the fish should be left where they are. I do agree that the current situation is highly hypocritical by the Brazilian Government, but we cannot change the legal or political agenda.

The idea behind this site is to provide information to people who want to breed these fish. I cannot tell people what their motives should be, but everyone here can make it easier to breed these fish in captivity. Thus reaching the end goal of successful, and plentiful breeding programmes, should the worst happen in the wild.

I should lay off the coffee!

rob

[Sojapat]

The fishermen are catching too many !
As I said before they get 15 times more than if they catch a gold nugget
These people have no gold minning any more , how do they get food and clothes .
When we left the fishermen wanted even our ruined clothes .
They are overfished ,so they travel farther to catch them,
So it goes ... Slowly they catch many fish ...
Dont think for one minuite that they wont catch most of them .
They can tell you exactly where to get them and they only occur in
narrow fast bits of the river .Not across its full width ..
Because they may build a dam , We should collect them all first ??
Come on !
Zebra plecs do better in the wild . They will recover ..
People are poor and need clothes and electricity ..
There may be a way to dam the river but still allow nature to do its thing
Dont you think there are people thinking of how to do this ?

[Rob]

Hi Sojapat

I agree, nowhere in my post did I say that I agreed with the current fishing. The Gold mining despite no longer being in effect, caused a vast reduction in numbers. These numbers are now endangerd due to over fishing.

Obviously overfishing has caused an effect, although this is difficult to quanitify. I personally feel it will have been enough to cause disruption ot the species.

I also agree that we are best to leave them as they are, otherwise the population will not have a chance to replenish.

On the point of the Belo Monte Dam, there are obviously sides which we as civilians do not see or understand. Since the Dam was given the go ahead, the three main individuals lobbying against it have "dissapeared". There is no doubt in my mind that the justification behind the dam is primarily Political and economical over and above "for the People" or environmental.

I genuinely believe that given time, and proper governing, the species in these areas could recouperate, but I also think that there are other motives to banning the export other than increasing the depleting numbers.

rob

[Dan D' Man]

The fishermen are catching too many !
Zebra plecs do better in the wild . They will recover ..
There may be a way to dam the river but still allow nature to do its thing
Dont you think there are people thinking of how to do this ?

Do I think there are people thinking of how to do this. NO.
Will the Zebra recover by themselves? Maybe, maybe not, but why chance it?

Nobody is saying catch all the Zebras & export them before building the dam. Probably nobody here will have any influence on the outcome anyway, ...that doesn't mean that us L046's fancier don't care & cannot keep up to date with the news.

I respect the laws of any country, however when it comes to the potential destruction of a species of animal, any animal...then it is my business. Why? because it was God who put Zebras in the Xingu, not the Brazilian govt. As a human, that gives me the right to care about nature.

Now, do you know how construction projects of the magnitude of an hydroelectic happens in these countries? Most 3rd world country lack the technical savy to build the plans, do the engineering, etc. The actual labor is local, but that is the actual building. The head honchos who plan these are contracted from other countries. For example, any major plan like this will have countries like USA, Germany, Belgium, etc bidding for the contract. The contractor that offers the best deal for the govt wins the contract that involves millions. So the first part of the proposal calls for estimates on time, materials, labor. There are considerations for the ecosystem, but they are usually limited for anything above water such as deforestation & land area for cattle, re-establishing small towns, etc. If there is any consideration for water, it is how to make it drinkable and how to re-establish edible fish.

Now, show me where in the Brazilian govt documents it shows concern for the L046's and other such species?

[McEve]

Given the slow reproduction rate of the Zebra I can't see how they would manage to replenish the numbers in only 2-3 years. That's only one generation. Surely it would take at least 3-4 generations before they have reestablished any consiberable amount of fish, so we're talking 10 years rather than 2-3, if they are left alone and not disturbed in any way?