L46 Database

[valhallan]

I've been thinking (dangerous, I know). Everybody on this forum seems to be very conscious of keeping breeding lines pure, and making sure the line breeding practices of other species doesn't happen with zebras.

I know that Rob is going to be making up certs when he starts to sell his F1s, which I think is a brilliant idea, but it seems that more and more people are producing fry on a semi regular basis. Since there really aren't all that many pure bloodlines to begin with, the chance of intermixing is just going to get greater as more fry are produced and people start distributing.

I think it would be a good idea to start up a database to keep track of the lines that are being produced, a sort of central information source that would contain information such as when the fish were born, whether the parents were wild or tank raised, which generation they are, that kind of thing. This way everybody who keeps zebs with the intent to breed them will know exactly what they are dealing with. I guess it would be a kind of pedigree system.

I won't go into too much detail until I hear what other people think, but am I way out in left field with this?

Val

[Mindy]

It's a good idea in theory... but what happens when we let the little'uns go? I think it'll be hard to impose such record keeping on other people. Let's face it, most people just say "oooh, pretty fish". We are avid enthusiasts, so it's a bit different for us, and we'd probably all be happy to keep such records. I just don't know how far it'd go past that. When I bought my pair of Apistos, I was concerned about what I would do when the time comes to sell their fry to the shops. I spoke to another Apisto breeder and asked, should I make the effort to sell the females to one shop and the males to another to avoid someone buying brother and sister and taking them home as a breeding pair. He told me that though my thoughts were admirable, I was worrying about something that no one else in the hobby bothered about in practice and that serious breeders would source their breeding stocks from separate places anyway.

I'm not saying certificates are a bad idea... I just don't know how well they'd hold up over here. Though I would welcome ideas to the contrary. And if I've misunderstood the question (which wouldn't surprise me , then please say so). Good idea though and interesting discussion!

[valhallan]

I think you understand perfectly Mindy

I was just thinking about it today because it's actually what I do for a living. I work in a biology lab where I run a fish breeding facility, and one of my jobs is keeping records of this kind of thing. I understand your point, but I would have thought that when you're talking about $100 + for a single fish, that most people who are buying them are beyond the "ooh, pretty fish" stage. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking this though.

Either way, it wouldn't really matter, as the people that don't really care that much probably aren't all that interested in breeding either. So, theoretically, the line stops there. My main thought was that it would be a way for us avid enthusiasts to make sure the stock we are buying/selling is genetically healthy (as far as we can).

Also, yes, serious breeders are going to make the effort to get their stock from different places, but with the influx of wild fish almost completely dried up now, most of the fish that are going to be bought and sold down the road will be tank raised. This means that even serious breeders will have trouble finding fresh blood, so to speak.

Val

[McEve]

I think it's a good idea, but I don't know if would be possible to keep a database accurate. It would have to include which breeder you got the fish from, if the parents are tank raised, and possibly who the breeder sold them to.

I know I would contribute to the database with as much info as possible, and I also agree that people who want to breed, and maybe even keep Zebras, would be past "pretty fish, I'll buy it", simply because of the price tag...

We don't know what the future holds, maybe the market will be swamped with wild caught in two or three years from now, but maybe it won't. Now would be a good time to establish this kind of recordkeeping if worse comes to worse and there'll be no more wild caughts exportet from Brazil. Keeping a databae like this updated and valuable to those that keep and want to breed Zebras will be very hard, but backtracking two or three years from now would be impossible.

[Dan D' Man]

I think it is a great idea...sort of AKC for Zebras. This was already tried once with Discus. I happen to know Jack Wattley, (Wattley Discus) where he used to sell them with a certificate. Up to 10 years ago, the line with another name was the Schmidt-Focke. What happened is that people started interbreeding them & now call them whatever they look like (Snakeskin Eagle Discus, etc). Our beloved L046's have one advantage: the markings are very distinctive & cannot be confused for another pleco, not even a False Zebra. What it would be good for is to assure future breeders that they are getting stock from different bloodlines: eg; Barakan L-3. etc, & it would be a good practice & good responsibility of the breeder to keep their records & sell accordingly. Of course it would have to be organized; something like: AZC ( American Zebra Club) or maybe WZC (not to leave our English friends outside of this, LOL), with proper registration as breeders, etc. The organization would keep all the official records, etc. Again, that's just my 2 cents worth.

[Mindy]

So, where would I start with this then? I have five zebras... and as far as I know, they're wild caught... But only because I've been told. It might be relatively safe assumption that they're different bloodlines, but without testing, it's still an assumption. I have never dealt with kennel club registration type things, so I'm not really sure how it all works.

[Rob]

Hi Guys

This is something I have been toying with (and if I remember correctly I was going to get back to you McEve on the database etc....oooppps sorry).

The initial idea for the database was so that I could responsibly provide individuals with unrelated fish. i.e if they come back in a year and buy two more, I can decide which brood to take them from. The certificate is just a way to giving the buyer the same info.....i.e. if my pc goes belly up there is still a record.

As you know i am working on a new site, which will include such things as a breeding list, and spawn numbers. This will enable individuals to place water parameters online, where thay can be analysed for trends etc.

Hopefully this will also give us a rough idea as to how many fish are being spawned in captivity, etc.

The only problem is I am having problems with the "technical side of this".

I've got an idea............go check out site-suggestions and I'll put a help post there!!!!

ANyway..back on track. As you all know breeding the zebra isn't just about sticking it in the tank and then selling the fry. For this reason I am hoping that any serious private breeders will eventally respect the need for information and contribute to the site and figures. I am already amazed by the number fo enthusiasts here, so it shows that that this could well happen.

We cannot control or keep a record of all breeding but we can encourage others to think about the way in which they breed the fish.

rob

[valhallan]

Hmm... Point taken Rob. Maybe pedigree was too strong a word to use. I'm more talking about an informal kind of record keeping where it would be easy to see where certain fish came from and whether problems would arise from breeding them with certain other fish. I understand that we can't control the way people keep or breed their zebras, but I don't see why we can't make an attempt at least to keep track of things from the people we do know about, such as those on this site. I mean, we already do it to some extent through our posts. This would just be a way of collating that information. It would be nice if we could expand it to incorporate other breeders that are not a part of this community, but I don't think that's very realistic yet.

Mindy, for your five zebs, it would be fairly safe to assume that they are from different bloodlines, but you're right, there's really no way to be sure short of DNA testing. I don't think anyone really thinks twice about breeding wild stock, it's more the tank raised generations that you need to worry about.

I'll try to give you an example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Say I have 4 zebs, 2 males and 2 females, all wild caught fish. These fish will each be given a number, to represent their bloodline. So:

Male 1: Z1
Male 2: Z2
Female 1: Z3
Female 2: Z4

Now they all decide to breed. Z1 breeds with Z3, and Z2 breeds with Z4. Now we have 2 new bloodlines to add:

Z1 X Z3 = Z5
Z2 X Z4 = Z6

Any following spawns from the same pairs will just increase the number of Z5s and Z6s. You won't actually add a new number until a new bloodline comes along. For example, if you switched around the breeding pairs.

Z1 X Z4 = Z7
Z2 X Z3 = Z8

So, now that you've kept records, you know that you can't interbreed Z5 with Z7 or Z8 because they share a common parent, but you can breed Z5 fish with fish from Z6 and still keep a strong line.

Val

[Rob]

Well Put Val.

Good way to explain it, and a far simpler way than I was initially thinking.

Rob

[KenW]

This is a good way of thinking. It does get more compicated once you throw in colony spawns where you have 1 male to 2 or 3 females. At this point it is easier to only track base on the males, since keeping track of the females will be much harder, if nearly impossible.