BULLDOG Fry- Genetic Or Environmental

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 9:43 pm

I'm been thinking quite a lot about how the best way to keep track of the origin of each spawn. Is somebody doing it now? I haven't been able to find a system that will prove to be useful yet. It's easy to keep track of now that I only have had three spwans, but I can clearly see it's going to be harder as time passes, and hopefully I get more.

Could we finda mutual place to enter data? Or how do you people recomend we go about doing this? I'm all for it!

Does this program have support for keeping track of parental origin? I belive you can exchange files through this program? If this is true then it might be a possible way to go?

KenW · Post by **KenW** » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:10 pm

I currently keep track of my spawns in a simple little MS excel file With dates, size spawn, and the male that sapwned. To hard to track the female. As I learn more I'll keep more info. What I need to do now is also record the pH and hardness on the day of the spawns.

sharko · Post by **sharko** » Sun Feb 06, 2005 11:38 pm

kgroenhoej wrote:It happens in other species as well.
I've seen ancistrus f1-fry with this defect.
And there's a picture in the New L-numbers of a wildcaught L18-"bulldog".

Regards
Klaus

How do you know that the picture is of a WC and not a tankbreed L-18
I do not find any reference to that statment in the book though..maybe i am not looking in the right place

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:00 pm

sharko wrote:How do you know that the picture is of a WC and not a tankbreed L-18

I do not know of any successfully/documented breedings of L-18 and I believe it's save to assume that this bulldog-L-18 is wc.
Erwin Schraml (picture by him) might of course clarify if the pictured fish is f1 or wildcaught.
Let's try to lure him into answer this himself

(and he might even have some inputs regarding bulldog-loricariidaes)

Regards
Klaus

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:04 pm

kgroenhoej wrote:Erwin Schraml (picture by him) might of course clarify if the pictured fish is f1 or wildcaught.
Let's try to lure him into answer this himself

(and he might even have some inputs regarding bulldog-loricariidaes)

Regards
Klaus

That would be fantastic! I'm still a bit uneasy about this issue... Do you think you could get him in here to give an opinion on this?

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:00 pm

Erwin wrote:the pictures of the L18-mutants (p.43) were all taken from wild caught animals. Aquarium Glaser, where the pictures were made, received these fish all at one time from the normal exporter of this species from Brazil. They even came together with the high-fin mutant of L81 (p.79), which made me call an online-article about them "Quasimodo and Esmeralda meet Jar Jar Binks".

http://www.aquanet.de/beitraege/Fachbei ... 800666.asp

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:18 pm

soo... what he says is that deformations appear to be more frequent than it used to be, and that it might be due to mercury released into the rivers by golddiggers (washing gold from the rivers)?

So how does this fit with captive breds having the same deformity as Qausimodo? There would be no mercury in breeding tanks, but I guess any kind of pollution could cause malformations.

I can't see Esmeraldas malformation being caused by being squashed when hatched though.

Looks like it's still a mystery what's causing this

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 9:19 pm

Maybe the question is wrong, maybe it's both enviromental AND genetic.

It has been suggested that this might be caused by the gold mining industry, more specifically the mercury they use in the process. Look at this:

http://www.clinchem.org/cgi/content/abs ... 4.042093v1

Our data indicate that mercury exposure can induce oxidative DNA damage

and

http://www.lenntech.com/Periodic-chart- ... /Hg-en.htm

DNA damage and chromosomal damage

So.. maybe it's an enviromentally caused genetic damage that is the cause of these snubnoses.

If that's the case, then I still say - don't breed them

I learned something new today, I didn't know mercury could damage the DNA, did you?

(I think I'm off to the dentist...... ah too late I guess

)

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 10:52 pm

Just to let you know that the same topic is very active in forum on l-welse.com:
http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4289

Here's a pic of a Bulldog-ancistrus (I don't know if the fish is wildcaught or tankbreed)

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:41 am

So it could be both then!

I suppose this could be likened to the DDT poisoning of raptors in England in the 70s-80s. The chemical gradually built up in the birds and caused them to produce very weak eggs. Could this be the same sort of scenario with Zebras?

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:13 pm

I whish I could find a person that speaks German and English, that could tie these two groups together......

I have babelfished my way through the German thread, but it's very hard to get the correct meaning through the famous Mr Bablefish.

What I think is the essence in the German thread is:

Poison - Nitriate levels
Chromosome disturbance - like Dawn Syndrome in people
Rescessive gene
substrate or not (no snubnoses with substrate as far as I could tell)

One person reckoned we should take advantage of it and breed Persian Zebras and sell them for a fortune to the Japanese

Joking aside: kgroenhoej, do you speak German as well as you do English?

Or are you guys sick and tired of this subject now..? I just know the key is out there somewhere, and I want it to be revealed

kgroenhoej · Post by **kgroenhoej** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 5:32 pm

No, I don't speak german - unfortunately. The german-class in school was not very exciting and I didn't pay it as much attention as I should have done - I regret that very often now a days...
I babelfish too

Walter · Post by **Walter** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:39 pm

Hi,
I have been asked by Klaus to do some translations here in the forum.

Well, here are the results of the Austrian jury

:

http://www.l46.de/l46/Der_Kauf_des_l46_ ... aharn.html

Noch einen Punkt den man beachten sollte! Mobsköpfe

Another point to be considered! Bulldog Heads (note: the correct word in German is Mops - for the ugly dogs. Mobs is plural of mob and means, as in English, mob

).

Siehe Bild links und Bild unten !

Look at the picture left and the picture below ( http://www.l46.de/l46/Der_Kauf_des_l46_ ... ops_22.jpg , http://www.l46.de/l46/Der_Kauf_des_l46_ ... ops_12.jpg )

Diese Erscheinungen sind mir bisher nur bei Nachzuchten bekannt.

I know this phenomenon only with specimen bred in captifity.

Die Tiere wachsen zwar normal weiter bekommen aber ihre steile Schnauze nicht mehr weg!

Animal grow normally, but do not loose their scarped snout.

Mann sollte diese Tiere auch nicht zur Zucht benutzen da man nicht weis welche Auswirkungen das auf die Nachkommen hat.

These specimen should not be used for breeding because the effects on the fry are not known.

Das Thema steht im Forum unter Zucht des L46 ;
Thema: Zebras mit kurzer Schnauze.

This theme is in the forum under "Breeding L 46"; theme: zebras with short snout

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:48 pm

Hi Walter! Welcome

So what does the Austrian jury believe is the cause of this deformity? There's been a wild caught speciement foung according to DATZ. Do you think there might something to the mercury damaging the DNA theory?

Or do you think it's cause is something entirely different?

Des · Post by **Des** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:50 pm

McEve,

My sons use www.reverso.net for translating their German school homework. Maybe that might be better.

Regards,
Des.