Funny thing that... I am so glad that in this day and age we are all open to the internet and the democratic reasoning that it brings.
Is there any chance that we can start a poll to see how many zebra pleco (L46) owners/ breeders are of the "opinion" that Zebs are too expensive.
What's the point?
We can make a difference... If everybody here who bought one could list how much they paid... and who they bought from, and when they made the purchase... POTENTIALLY we could force the prices down...
I am going to buy a "threesome" after my tank has sufficiently matured. And as a warning for the "investors" amongst us, I would like to state that if I ever get fry of any substantial quantity... it will be a pleasure pricing you out of the market.
Finally I would like to say that it is not fair that extinction/exclusivity is the profit making cash cow that loads of people are "only "interested in.
Please state your opinion, and respect my right to one. I will ignore comments made to discredit me (I don't have time for business breeders).
Kind regards
Bader.
Can we all spread the message...
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madmoroccan
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Hi Badir
I'm not sure if you have done a search through the site, but there are quite a few topics on this one and as you can imagine it gets a little hot.
I must admit however I do like your approach and it is nice to see this topic approached from an "open minded" persepective.
What I would like to say however before we begin this topic is that this is an opportunity to express opinion and as Bader has rightly said... Everyone has a right to an opinion. Therefore lets keep this objective and most of all friendly!!!!!
Any comments that get out of tone will be removed.
Hope you are ready for a good discussion!!!!!!.
Now to remove my "Admin hat" and place a proper post!
Rob
I'm not sure if you have done a search through the site, but there are quite a few topics on this one and as you can imagine it gets a little hot.
I must admit however I do like your approach and it is nice to see this topic approached from an "open minded" persepective.
What I would like to say however before we begin this topic is that this is an opportunity to express opinion and as Bader has rightly said... Everyone has a right to an opinion. Therefore lets keep this objective and most of all friendly!!!!!
Any comments that get out of tone will be removed.Hope you are ready for a good discussion!!!!!!.
Now to remove my "Admin hat" and place a proper post!
Rob
Last edited by Rob on Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
Hell yeah!
The price of Zebras has, as we all know increased dramatically over recent years. The reason behind this is quite simple... supply and demand. People can't get them, and are therefore willing to offer large sums of money for them. Sellers, in most cases are willing to oblige, and take this money in exchange for one of the wee stripey fellows!
This is where the dilemma begins. There is no doubt in my mind that the fish is highly over priced, yet we are living in a consumers world. Whilst I do not agree with it, and try to sell my fish at a price that is cheaper in comparison, we cannot influence this trend with the sale of a few fish. What we can do however is make it less attractive to pay the amounts asked for. For example I know of several shops that have sold 1" fish for £200. If somebody who went into the store and thought, "hmmmm... maybe if I keep an eye on ZP.com I could get them cheaper", then we are influencing the commercial value. However, the next person may not have heard of Zp.com and may think wow I've been looking for that for years... so it will still sell. Or they may just be willing to pay that amount.
Another "spanner" in the works of selling fish at a great deal cheaper is the control aspect. If we do not "vet" our buyers with extreme care, i.e. only sell to friend and family, the fish we sell for cheap may well be sold the next day for the market value.
I agree wholeheartedly that these fish are over-priced, and feel that as a site, we can influence the market over time. The current price of the fish leads to them being treated as a commodity as opposed to an endangered species.
There are two ways that a commodity drops in price, lack of demand, or increase in availability. Both of which will occur in the next few years, each one having a knock on effect. i.e. the more bred in captivity, the more available on the market, the less sought after they become, because they are not as rare. Hence a price drop.
What we can do now however, as Bader has rightly stated, is offer captive bred fish at a reasonable rate, to make the high prices less attractive. What we must bear in mind though is that the price will never drop to pennies simply due to the nature of the fish. i.e the have very few fry and they take an eternity to reach maturity!
Who's next?
rob
The price of Zebras has, as we all know increased dramatically over recent years. The reason behind this is quite simple... supply and demand. People can't get them, and are therefore willing to offer large sums of money for them. Sellers, in most cases are willing to oblige, and take this money in exchange for one of the wee stripey fellows!
This is where the dilemma begins. There is no doubt in my mind that the fish is highly over priced, yet we are living in a consumers world. Whilst I do not agree with it, and try to sell my fish at a price that is cheaper in comparison, we cannot influence this trend with the sale of a few fish. What we can do however is make it less attractive to pay the amounts asked for. For example I know of several shops that have sold 1" fish for £200. If somebody who went into the store and thought, "hmmmm... maybe if I keep an eye on ZP.com I could get them cheaper", then we are influencing the commercial value. However, the next person may not have heard of Zp.com and may think wow I've been looking for that for years... so it will still sell. Or they may just be willing to pay that amount.
Another "spanner" in the works of selling fish at a great deal cheaper is the control aspect. If we do not "vet" our buyers with extreme care, i.e. only sell to friend and family, the fish we sell for cheap may well be sold the next day for the market value.
I agree wholeheartedly that these fish are over-priced, and feel that as a site, we can influence the market over time. The current price of the fish leads to them being treated as a commodity as opposed to an endangered species.
There are two ways that a commodity drops in price, lack of demand, or increase in availability. Both of which will occur in the next few years, each one having a knock on effect. i.e. the more bred in captivity, the more available on the market, the less sought after they become, because they are not as rare. Hence a price drop.
What we can do now however, as Bader has rightly stated, is offer captive bred fish at a reasonable rate, to make the high prices less attractive. What we must bear in mind though is that the price will never drop to pennies simply due to the nature of the fish. i.e the have very few fry and they take an eternity to reach maturity!
Who's next?
rob
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
I'm next
I wish you luck in what your trying to achieve but I'm not sure if I entirely agree with it, and it's not money motivated.
I do believe the price will drop for 3 reasons, first the obvious more will be bred in captivity, secondly as Rob has stated the number of fry they produce and thirdly people will unload them as they lose patience after failing to breed them.
I voted hell yeah.
It takes a substantial amount of cash to set up a colony, it always has I recall them being £55 in 1996.
The objection I have to the so called business breeding, if they are mass producing this in itself will bring down the price, is the quality of fish that comes on the market in years to come. We have seen it any many other species.
You look at this fish and they are gorgeous, so while popularity may fluctuate, I doubt if they'll ever become unpopular.
This fish will never be cheap, hence you cannot stop commercially minded people getting involved and I don't think that many people on this site, if any can compete with the resources of the Florida and Singapore fish farms.
If the serious breeders on here keep a record of the source of their fish, avoid inbreeding ( I for one don't want to see a longfinned zebra ). Then we might be able to maintain the species as it is at the moment,
Also if somebody buys a fish from a breeder treating it as a business, then develops a interest in zebras or any other fish then it can only be a good thing.
I started with platies.
Take care
Dave
I do believe the price will drop for 3 reasons, first the obvious more will be bred in captivity, secondly as Rob has stated the number of fry they produce and thirdly people will unload them as they lose patience after failing to breed them.
I voted hell yeah.
It takes a substantial amount of cash to set up a colony, it always has I recall them being £55 in 1996.
The objection I have to the so called business breeding, if they are mass producing this in itself will bring down the price, is the quality of fish that comes on the market in years to come. We have seen it any many other species.
You look at this fish and they are gorgeous, so while popularity may fluctuate, I doubt if they'll ever become unpopular.
This fish will never be cheap, hence you cannot stop commercially minded people getting involved and I don't think that many people on this site, if any can compete with the resources of the Florida and Singapore fish farms.
If the serious breeders on here keep a record of the source of their fish, avoid inbreeding ( I for one don't want to see a longfinned zebra ). Then we might be able to maintain the species as it is at the moment,
Also if somebody buys a fish from a breeder treating it as a business, then develops a interest in zebras or any other fish then it can only be a good thing.
I started with platies.
Take care
Dave
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madmoroccan
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Thanks for the first couple of posts. I am glad to see open minded debate...
@ Rob:
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words related to this post, even though it has been discussed before. My angle on this is: if we can create a UK based protest to the pet and breeder prices we may stop people taking advantage of what to me is a situation created by the lack of stock.
Furthermore... I would like to know what people have to say to the opinion that these fish WILL become extinct in the wild if we continue to pay post 2004 prices.
I am not trying to stop or discourage people from buying the ZEBs... No... quite the opposite. What we can all do is: due to the nature and rarity of these fish, why not force prices down since they are so specialised? I am sure this forum "probably represents" atleast 30% of the L46 breeder's community. Heck, probably more!
On an off topic congrats on the new baby... Sorry if I am a little late!
@ Dave
Thanks for levelling an opinion. I for one definately understand the standpoint that the fish themselves cost money to raise... But wouldn't you prefer it if prices were at the 1996 level (55gbp)?
I would like to see these fish become even more popular... But with a rise in livestock... Not price. I think this getting to be more of a case of: "who has the best ... (fill in the rest as you see fit)". Remeber those arguements at school when one kid always had the most exclusive pair of Addidas trainers? Or wot about the kid with the designer wardrobe (who's poor parents live in a council flat)?
Anyhow, what I am trying to say is that the exclusivity is lost on us if that is all we care about... Remember these beautiful fish will be "exclusive" in the TRUE sense if all we can do is price them way too expensively for genuine conservationists to consider raising them (even if we get a few beginner's willing to try, better than nothing right?).
Finally I would to say thanks to all of you who voted, and to all that have read this post... Particularly if I have succeeded in evoking some passionate feelings towards the preservation of the L46.
Sincerely
Bader.
@ Rob:
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words related to this post, even though it has been discussed before. My angle on this is: if we can create a UK based protest to the pet and breeder prices we may stop people taking advantage of what to me is a situation created by the lack of stock.
Furthermore... I would like to know what people have to say to the opinion that these fish WILL become extinct in the wild if we continue to pay post 2004 prices.
I am not trying to stop or discourage people from buying the ZEBs... No... quite the opposite. What we can all do is: due to the nature and rarity of these fish, why not force prices down since they are so specialised? I am sure this forum "probably represents" atleast 30% of the L46 breeder's community. Heck, probably more!
On an off topic congrats on the new baby... Sorry if I am a little late!
@ Dave
Thanks for levelling an opinion. I for one definately understand the standpoint that the fish themselves cost money to raise... But wouldn't you prefer it if prices were at the 1996 level (55gbp)?
I would like to see these fish become even more popular... But with a rise in livestock... Not price. I think this getting to be more of a case of: "who has the best ... (fill in the rest as you see fit)". Remeber those arguements at school when one kid always had the most exclusive pair of Addidas trainers? Or wot about the kid with the designer wardrobe (who's poor parents live in a council flat)?
Anyhow, what I am trying to say is that the exclusivity is lost on us if that is all we care about... Remember these beautiful fish will be "exclusive" in the TRUE sense if all we can do is price them way too expensively for genuine conservationists to consider raising them (even if we get a few beginner's willing to try, better than nothing right?).
Finally I would to say thanks to all of you who voted, and to all that have read this post... Particularly if I have succeeded in evoking some passionate feelings towards the preservation of the L46.
Sincerely
Bader.
Hi all,
Interesting debate, I am sure everyone who wants a zebra but is unfortunate not to have one currently will definately say they are too expensive. I like many other people bought mine early 2002 for £35 AND LATER IN 2004 FOR £75.
As Rob pointed out supply and demand dictates prices. It is very difficult to influence these prices as there are too many people out there thats sole motivation is moneyand already have huge fish farms.
I will be honest I currently have several fry from a range of spawns that vary in age from3-8 months. My first objective is to keep double my breeding quantity to ensure I have this beautiful fish. Then all fish after I would prefer to trade with people on here to try and avoid reducing inbreeding and poor qualtiy.
We as a collective however are never going to meet demand. Singapore will, they are(So i have been told) 2 years away from having large volume supply of these fish available on the open market and large retailers will then be able to buy in large volume and slowly bring prices down. The negative to this is quality, history in this industry shows that the high demand, sought after fish are almost extint in the wild but in an abundance in the trade. Cherry barbs, red tailed black sharks, etc, etc. But all these fish are substandard to their wild couterparts.
What we can do is keep the quality high at an acceptable price between ourselves and hope that honest like minded people work together.
Interesting debate, I am sure everyone who wants a zebra but is unfortunate not to have one currently will definately say they are too expensive. I like many other people bought mine early 2002 for £35 AND LATER IN 2004 FOR £75.
As Rob pointed out supply and demand dictates prices. It is very difficult to influence these prices as there are too many people out there thats sole motivation is moneyand already have huge fish farms.
I will be honest I currently have several fry from a range of spawns that vary in age from3-8 months. My first objective is to keep double my breeding quantity to ensure I have this beautiful fish. Then all fish after I would prefer to trade with people on here to try and avoid reducing inbreeding and poor qualtiy.
We as a collective however are never going to meet demand. Singapore will, they are(So i have been told) 2 years away from having large volume supply of these fish available on the open market and large retailers will then be able to buy in large volume and slowly bring prices down. The negative to this is quality, history in this industry shows that the high demand, sought after fish are almost extint in the wild but in an abundance in the trade. Cherry barbs, red tailed black sharks, etc, etc. But all these fish are substandard to their wild couterparts.
What we can do is keep the quality high at an acceptable price between ourselves and hope that honest like minded people work together.
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madmoroccan
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@ Shimmy...
That is exactly what I think would be a good start to this project...
I 100% agree that if we forced prices down in the forum first people would slowly begin to realise that this is the place to be if you have an interest in L46. Imagine what would happen if OUR forum became the cheapest place to buy them even at 120 pounds each... The rest of the master plan follows soon after... Word of mouth spreads like wild fire. It would only be a matter of time before the bubble bursts. If we don't do something about the extortionate prices then no one will...
I sincerely hope I am not the only person trying to do something about this problem.
As for gene pool and inbreeding, I am extremely keen to spread the gene pool of my colony when I succeed in obtaining some adults. I don't know how people on here expand their gene pool but I was thinking something along the lines of a pleco exchange, like for like... ect... I have yet to think of something.
Wishful thinking... I have yet to wait for the nitrite spike (in my main tank) to dip and settle for a couple of weeks before I go out and aquire "exclusive" fish that are L46. Rest assured the exclusive prices will be paid too... but those after me may not have to. Here's hoping!
Bader.
P.S. Anyone willing to tell me how much a reasonably priced L333 costs?
That is exactly what I think would be a good start to this project...
I 100% agree that if we forced prices down in the forum first people would slowly begin to realise that this is the place to be if you have an interest in L46. Imagine what would happen if OUR forum became the cheapest place to buy them even at 120 pounds each... The rest of the master plan follows soon after... Word of mouth spreads like wild fire. It would only be a matter of time before the bubble bursts. If we don't do something about the extortionate prices then no one will...
I sincerely hope I am not the only person trying to do something about this problem.
As for gene pool and inbreeding, I am extremely keen to spread the gene pool of my colony when I succeed in obtaining some adults. I don't know how people on here expand their gene pool but I was thinking something along the lines of a pleco exchange, like for like... ect... I have yet to think of something.
Wishful thinking... I have yet to wait for the nitrite spike (in my main tank) to dip and settle for a couple of weeks before I go out and aquire "exclusive" fish that are L46. Rest assured the exclusive prices will be paid too... but those after me may not have to. Here's hoping!
Bader.
P.S. Anyone willing to tell me how much a reasonably priced L333 costs?
Hi again
I like your train of thought, and yes I tend to agress with everything you say. I also believe that ZP.com will become the best place to get zebras, becasue we will over time build up a community that is trusted and known throughout the fishbreeding community. However I think the reason for the fact that it could be the "cheapest place to buy fish is becuase we would be selling them / swapping them within ourselves. This itself create problems. i.e a clique. Once again we are left with the problem of what to dowhen the new forum member (with the hidden agenda) wants some fish cheap then sells them on.
I think as you say this will work on reputation and consience. As te site increases, the more fish are bred, the more breeders sell or exchange fish, which means more fish are bred, et,etc. If they do beomce available on a commercial basis, the price will drop, and we may find ourselves having to charge more than our commercial dopplegangers.
Unless of course as a group we can match the trade voluem and once again force down prices due to volume!!!
My go it's just like the Oil Industry!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the note of the Exchange, this has been suggested before and I am in discussions with a member of the forum at present about trying to set up a facility that could provide this!
I like your train of thought, and yes I tend to agress with everything you say. I also believe that ZP.com will become the best place to get zebras, becasue we will over time build up a community that is trusted and known throughout the fishbreeding community. However I think the reason for the fact that it could be the "cheapest place to buy fish is becuase we would be selling them / swapping them within ourselves. This itself create problems. i.e a clique. Once again we are left with the problem of what to dowhen the new forum member (with the hidden agenda) wants some fish cheap then sells them on.
I think as you say this will work on reputation and consience. As te site increases, the more fish are bred, the more breeders sell or exchange fish, which means more fish are bred, et,etc. If they do beomce available on a commercial basis, the price will drop, and we may find ourselves having to charge more than our commercial dopplegangers.
Unless of course as a group we can match the trade voluem and once again force down prices due to volume!!!
My go it's just like the Oil Industry!!!!!!!!!!!!
On the note of the Exchange, this has been suggested before and I am in discussions with a member of the forum at present about trying to set up a facility that could provide this!
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
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madmoroccan
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I am in the process of drawing up a conctrete list of conditions for this project... With incentives to all who may wish to take part.
More on this once I cover all the bases... especially abuse of the system.
I am close to finishing this proposal paper... In the mean time I would like a show of hands on who might be interested in taking part.
As I said there will be incentives for all involved... I am sure that we can all benefit from this... even if it means free food and equipment for the fish or something of the like...
Suggestions would be good... REMEMBER all I am proposing at this time is that we do this on the THiS forum... Over time it will take hold and become NATIONWIDE, with our forum as the focus point.
Bader.
More on this once I cover all the bases... especially abuse of the system.
I am close to finishing this proposal paper... In the mean time I would like a show of hands on who might be interested in taking part.
As I said there will be incentives for all involved... I am sure that we can all benefit from this... even if it means free food and equipment for the fish or something of the like...
Suggestions would be good... REMEMBER all I am proposing at this time is that we do this on the THiS forum... Over time it will take hold and become NATIONWIDE, with our forum as the focus point.
Bader.
would setting up a 20 or 30 be a substantial breeding tank from which to breed and raise fry in
and is there like a group you can join so that you know that your buying/selling fish from/to an expeirenced breeder who has/will take good care of them and improve on the populatoin?
and is there like a group you can join so that you know that your buying/selling fish from/to an expeirenced breeder who has/will take good care of them and improve on the populatoin?
Thebuddy is planning his tank
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madmoroccan
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One last thing to add...
Just a thought... but wouldn't it be good if instead of a "Make a donation" button at the bottom of this page, we have a "voluntary" 10pounds per fish sold through the "for sale" section going to the forum?
And how those funds should be used... we could get equipment for those who are serious about forcing prices down...
I would definately make donations through that system... even if I DONT benefit from it. I do this for love not money.
Just a thought... but wouldn't it be good if instead of a "Make a donation" button at the bottom of this page, we have a "voluntary" 10pounds per fish sold through the "for sale" section going to the forum?
And how those funds should be used... we could get equipment for those who are serious about forcing prices down...
I would definately make donations through that system... even if I DONT benefit from it. I do this for love not money.
very intresting idea it would help people who cant afford equipment (cough me cough) buy more stuff so they could start breeding fishes (cough me cough) so they could drive prices down and save the species
just kidding this should go to people who already have a good breeding program going to help them expand so they can actuly compete with florida and stuff so we can destroy the zebra plecos market price and make it like two cents and then ill buy every single one
bring diabolical schemeing to a neiborhood near you
along with the ability (or inability) to never be serous for long
just kidding this should go to people who already have a good breeding program going to help them expand so they can actuly compete with florida and stuff so we can destroy the zebra plecos market price and make it like two cents and then ill buy every single onebring diabolical schemeing to a neiborhood near you
along with the ability (or inability) to never be serous for long
Thebuddy is planning his tank
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madmoroccan
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LOL... I am sure the same could be achieved in the good old US of A...
I am glad to finally see some comments on this topic...
By the way (cough cough me) could also nominate (cough me) *somebody*...
No, on a serious note: only time will if those of us who are serious about this will succeed.
Suggestions are welcome...
I am glad to finally see some comments on this topic...
By the way (cough cough me) could also nominate (cough me) *somebody*...
No, on a serious note: only time will if those of us who are serious about this will succeed.
Suggestions are welcome...
I would be happy to look at swaping fish with people on this site, and I dont mean to offend anyone, but I would be very cautious, there are several of us on this site that although not regular contibutors to the topics know each other for long periods of time and have a lot of mutual respect that goes back before this site was set up.
If successful it is inevitable that unscrupilous people will cotton on and plan to deceive.
My hope is that there will come a time where controlled farming of these fish is agreed as this will help keep the zebra in its wild habitat.
If successful it is inevitable that unscrupilous people will cotton on and plan to deceive.
My hope is that there will come a time where controlled farming of these fish is agreed as this will help keep the zebra in its wild habitat.
