Brand new set up. Advice please.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 8:40 pm

I am going to get a new tank to setup for some zebras. I don't have them home yet so I have some time to do it right the first time, with help of you guys!

I'm going to get a whole new tank and set it up specifically. With the space that I have now, I could easily accomodate another 2ft tank. If I HAD to, I might be able to rearrange things and get a 3ft.

For the sake of convenience the 2ft would be easier for me... BUT, if it would be significantly better to get the 3ft, then I would rather do that as after all, it's their comfort that's more important. Not my convenience.

Which size tank do you think would be the best. I have 2 zebras coming, but will get more to hopefully establish a happy breeding group in the future.

Also, with regard to substrate, it seems that most people prefer small pebbles. Is this the best? And would a UGF be a good or a bad thing for zebras?

Thanks in advance.

Ed_R · Post by **Ed_R** » Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:43 pm

I think you're going to need a grow-out tank BEFORE you need a breeding tank. That's usually the case with anything, but the zebras are good kids and don't start fooling around until they are young adults, and it usually takes a year or two for that to happen to them. ALong the way there are the usual squabbles for territory and girls and stuff, so they really should have some room to stretch out in while they're growing up. For 6 fish, that probably means the 3-foot tank. I have two subadults in a 30-inch tank, and I think it's a bit small, frankly. But that's jus tme, I like giving fishes room to grow.

As to substrate- I almost always go with sand over gravel for some reason. I use a medium-grit sand, not as big as pebbles but coarser than the stuf fyou find in ash trays. I also usually try to find an animal to turn it over for me so I don't have to, but with the zebra tank I have only enough sand to cover teh bottom and when I do a water change the siphon picks it up , swirls it around, and spits it out pretty well.

I have used an undergravle filter for maybe 4 tanks of the 30 or 40 I've kept since around 1972. I have never been a big fan of them for some reason, I have no idea why. BUt in a tank designed to breed bottom feeders, I don't think it's a good idea.
Just my two cents.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:06 am

I already have two other tanks in this room. Both 2ft, one is 80ltrs and the other around 20ltrs. Both of them used for holding/quarantine etc. So I am not short of tanks. It is these tanks that I have to fit the new tank in around (as well as my chinchillas!). The 80ltr tank is on a cabinet designed for a 4ft tank, so there is space leftover. A 3ft tank, however, would need more thought as to where to put it. I also have a fully planted 4ft tank downstairs.

Even so... As you said, I think it will be a while before a grow-out tank is necessary! But all the same, a quick shift around in the upstairs tanks and I could make either of the two already existing tanks ready for new occupants.

Des · Post by **Des** » Sat Feb 12, 2005 9:29 pm

Hi Mindy,

Wellcome to the forum.
In answer to your questions.
Re tank size, the larger the better. If using one of your current ones, the 80 ltr would be my choice.
Re substrate, Everyone has their own preferances, My own is bare bottomed, since I dont want to lose any zebras ( after the last lot) due to unseen food contamination in the substrate. If you did want a substrate ,then Coarse sand would be a good choice.Small Pebbles is a definite NO NO, as food particles, such as disintegrating catfish pellets can get lodged in the crevasses.
In all my plec tanks I have siliconed a 5 or 6" high glass to partition a quarter of the tank. This I then use as an undergravel , using a 3" layer of Hortag (baked clay granules) which is obtainable at Garden Centers, and powered by Venturi powerheads, an Aquaclear 201 on my 2 fts and 301 on my 3 fts. All the fish prefer to "stay" on the bare bottom side and are also fed this side. This provides extra turbulence in the water and also extra aeration and negates the need for an external filter. ( I also use a sponge air operated filter as an extra safeguard.)
Better hurry with your zebras as they are getting more expensive by the day, ie if one can get any.

Regards,
Des.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:25 am

Thanks for the advice Des. But I'm having a little trouble visualising what you've done with your set up. You couldn't post or email a picture could you?

I've bought another tank, 30" (76.2cm). I'm currently reorganising things in the room to get it in it's final place and start setting it up. I've got a few more questions.

Would a dark substrate be better than a light one? I could maybe get something like Aquagrit, which is an inert substrate, quite dark and rather coarser than sand if I remember correctly. Would that be preferrable to, say, ordinary coloured, coarse sand?

Also, what about a few tankmates? I was thinking more specifically about things in the tank that might be useful, say, for cleaning. Like Otos or something. Will probably put a few lemon tetras in at first, to help mature the tank (I will also seed the filters from the other tanks, etc). I'll get as much water as I can from the place where the fish are so it's not a shock to their system. They are currently in ordinary conditioned tapwater. So I will have to set up that way and gradually lower it. Water around here is normally around pH 7.8 and quite hard. I have an RO unit, so my tanks sit around 7.2 at the moment. I've only had the RO unit since around August/September and am slowly lowering the tanks with ordinary water changes.

Incidentally, I have already secured two fish. They had a bunch in (well, around 6 or 7) at one of my favourite shops and I've been wistfully watching them for months. Slowly they've been sold off and I didn't know what to do because I really can't afford them. But I've been keeping an eye on their predicament and decided it was the time to do something before it was too late. So I went back and there were two Zebras left, so I put a deposit down and they are happy to hold them while I finish paying for them. £95 each. Ouch. I haven't told my partner yet!

I realise I will probably need more to have a proper breeding colony, and will be keeping an eye out on this forum for people in the UK who are selling stock. Yikes... I know I'm doing a good thing, helping save this wonderful fish. But I feel so guilty! So much money. But I can't imagine NOT doing it... I'm really quite excited about it!

Des · Post by **Des** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:56 pm

Hi Mindy,
There is a picture of one of my 2ft breeding setups on First time zebra dad under Breeding. If that is not too clear, send me a PM with your e-mail and I will try and send you a more clearer picture.
I will try to explain.
1)Get a piece of 4mm or 6mm glass cut approx 6" height x inner dimension of tank from front glass to back glass. Grind edges.
2)Silicone this piece of glass in the tank, approx 6" away from one of the sides.
3) Use Hagen or Rena plates (with an uplift tube) to fit this undergravel area which will be aprox 6"wide x length of front to back of tank
4)Use substrate of choice ( approx 3 to 4") in undergravel area. I use Hortag.
5)Fit powerhead to uplift tube.
Fill tank and you are ready to go.

I tried Playpit sand in one of my breeding set ups, but removed it after a couple of weeks, since some of the foods I feed like JMC protein food, etc were invisible to me amongst the sand and therefore if not eaten, could pollute the tank. As said before there are a lot of others who do use a substrate.I prefer not to.
Although I have the fish in a tank with no substrate there are a lot of caves and bogwood for them to play and hide in.
Re tankmates all my zebra tanks have different tankmates. One has rams and corys. One has Dwarf whiptail catfish and a pair of Apistogrammas and the last one has a few corys. So tankmates shouldnt be a problem.
Water here in London is a similar ph to yours and a GH of about 15 or 16 so I use a 50 % tap water and 50 % RO mix for the general plec and zebra tanks . For the breeding zebras I have increased the amount of RO.
What filters have you got on your other tanks. Maybe it would be wise to transfer one of these to the zebra set up. If not possible, in addition to seeding it from one of your other tanks , I would use a bacteria additive like Cycle (which I use ) to speed up the process. Remember Nitrite is a killer especially with plecs so you dont want any dead ones on your hands.
Do you know the sex of these 2 zebras?.

Regards,
Des.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:46 am

Des, I've been to the shop and photographed my two. But I don't think I can post them here. You need the images already on a website don't you? I don't have one. If you can give me a clue what to do, I'll post the pics I've taken so you guys can give them the "once over". I've looked and I don't THINK they have the snub noses, but I'd like someone with more experience to look at them just to be sure. Plus, I am not sure if they're male or female. The pictures MIGHT give some clues, but I could only really photograph them from the side and at an angle from above. One is definitely rounder bodied than the other, but the other one is generally slimmer. They're still in the shop display tank with some cherry barbs I think... They have one small piece of bogwood for the pair of them and they both squeeze under it. Poor little things.

Do you not have problems with corys eating the Zebras eggs? Or do you remove them? I've always thought I had to keep corys away from breeding fish because once they will eat eggs. During the day, the parents can defend their eggs, but at night it's harder.

I will have a look at the pictures in the other post and see if I understand. I will PM you with questions if I have any. Thanks again for your help. All advice at this early pre-set up stage is welcome as it's easier to take the time to do it right than it is to try and correct mistakes. I would be devastated if I lost either of these two fish.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:21 am

Thanks to some help from McEve, I have the snaps I took at the LFS uploaded so I can post them for you. I took these yesterday at the shop, and just did it quickly because the shop was busy and the guy was standing there holding their piece of bogwood so I could get a pic. I think they're getting their fins nipped by the other fish in the tank with them, so the sooner I get them out of there the better! Do you think their under undue stress from fin nipping? Would I be best advised to get them out of there quick? Bear in mind, their tank is still being set up. I could possibly stick them in a 2ft (5gal) tank if I absolutely had to. It is mature, but the pH is low, but I could raise it easy enough, just have to acclimate and move the fish that are in there to another tank.

If I did put them directly in their new setup (using LFS water and tap and a small mature filter from another tank) what would I need to do to keep them safe while the tank matures? Or would that just be TOOOO dodgy? I don't know how fast nitrite builds up during the day. I don't wish to place these fish under any more stress.

Anyway, any first thoughts about the condition and possibly sex (I know this is difficult) of these would be appreciated. They're around 3". I don't know what age. I couldn't really get good, clear pics due to things going on around me, and obviously I couldn't photograph them from above. Anyway... here are my little guys. Time to let the experts have a look!

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:16 pm

I'm not scared to guess on other peoples fish, my own - now that's a completely different matter

provided they are the same size, which I would guestimate a 5.5 - 6cm (depending on wether the fins are included as length or not), it looks to me that one is showing signs of developing carachteristics of a male (side shot on first picture), while the other (side shot on pic nr3) shows signs of developing caracteristics of a female.

Pure guestimates though, based on profile and size of pelvic fin, angle of the pectoral fin - and well... it does look like that doesn't it...?

Des · Post by **Des** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:22 pm

Hi Mindy,
I use www.Photobucket.com for when I want to post photographs. Like you I had never posted a photo until a few weeks ago.
Very nice pictures of your new zebras. Are you sure they are 3"?. They look a liitle smaller. Unfortunately it is difficult to sex them from that angle. I would guess that the one on the left in the top picture is a female. The bottom 2 pictures look to be the same fish. The fish on the right in the top picture and second picture , it is difficult to say due to him or her facing away from the camera.
Regarding getting your zebras sooner than later, I would only get them sooner IF you have a mature filter that you can transfer to the new tank.In one of my newer zebra tanks I only had a large mature sponge filter to start with while the new undergravel matured in parrallel.
What is the filter you propose moving?.
Regards,
Des.

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:35 am

The only mature filter that I can move to this tank would be a small algarde sponge filter which is in a q/t tank. I have bought a new one as well, which I can squash the sponge into either the internal Fluval or external Eheim, both of which are running on the 4ft tank, and let it soak up some of the good stuff. Theoretically, I could put the Fluval 4 plus from the 4ft in there, as I also have a large Eheim running on that tank, but it would create a helluva current in that tank. I have visions of the fish mashed against the far wall of the tank! It's really strong.

If I HAD to bring them home now, I would not be happy about putting them straight into the new tank because I just wouldn't trust it to be stable yet - and that could spell disaster. Would it be a terrible thing to temporarily house them in the 2ft (80L) tank while the other one settles in? The pH will be a bit lower, but I suppose I could raise it over the next week to make it more like the shop water by doing changes with straight tapwater. The main problem is that there is a UGF in there at the moment. It's not my choice, but I haven't got around to buying either an internal or (my preference) another Eheim for it. Until I do, it's stuck with the UGF. Would the Zebs be OK with that while their tank is being prepared? Would moving them again once their tank is ready be a bad thing? The 80L has smooth natural gravel, some peaceful community fish and the dreaded UGF.

As far as them being 3", they could be just under. They're still small. I'm not that great with exact guesstimates on size. They seem lively though, so that's good. Pity they're getting munched by the other fish!

Des · Post by **Des** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:12 pm

Hi Mindy,
Shouldnt be a problem temporarily housing them in your 2 ft if it is a mature tank with mature filter system even though it is a UGF !!!!.
Des.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:21 pm

Go rescue them girl!

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 8:52 am

Oooh... I might just do that this weekend!

I'll do a water change with tap water tonight, take a load of readings and then compare it to the shop water. I'm sure I can get the pH to within .2 of our normal tap water here by the weekend. We're normally around 7.8 here, though most of my tanks run around 7.2 - 7.4 at the moment. So it won't take that much to get it near to whatever it is in the shop (and I'll test it with my own kit to be sure).

What about KH and GH. Do changes in these parameters make as much difference as pH? Or will they cope with that OK? My KH/GH has gone down as it will naturally, but also because I'm now using RO water.

Am I worrying too much?

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 9:46 am

It's always wise to be careful. We're talking about expensive and precious fish after all. But it sounds to me as though you have everything under control, and know what to be careful with, how to treat them so on.

The hardness of the water is not as crucial as the PH, and much easier to get adapted to for the fish. There's a very long thread under "Help" - "What's happening to my baby" that shows how important the hardness is for osmoregulation, but you have subadult fish that should cope just fine as long as you don't throw them straight into 0 from 20, which I know you wouldn't do.

Just let them slowly acclimitize and I think they'll be much better off in your hands than together with those Serpae tetras.

Good luck