Occasional Fry dieing

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KenW
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Occasional Fry dieing

Post by KenW »

Has anyone experience this problem?

So far I've had multiple spawns which resulted in a total of 30 babies, and I've lost two so far. One around 2 months ago and another a few days ago. The babies were 3 months old and 4 months old and were from different parents. All the others are doing well. Water parameters are good no ammonia or nitrite and pH 7.5, nitrate <20. I wonder if it could be over eating. Every time,the fry were fat and happy. Intestinal blockage, maybe? Sorry no pictures.

Ken
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Post by Adam »

Hi Ken,

I'm not quite sure why your post has been left unanswered for so long. :?

A number of members on the forum have experienced the same sort of inexplicable deaths. Generally it tends to affect zebras under about two months of age. Discussions on this topic to date have been along the lines of suspected intestinal blockages and choking on large food particles. It's extremely hard to say for definite what causes these deaths as it doesn't appear to be isolated to one particular food type. An interesting article that I read on a German forum a while back suggested feeding live brine shrimp presoaked in garlic juice occasionally to safeguard against intestinal blockages in young fish.

Adam
Last edited by Adam on Tue May 31, 2005 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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McEve
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Post by McEve »

Adam wrote:I'm not quite sure why your post has been left unanswered for so long. :?
Indeed! I noticed this category is also the least posted in... wonder why that is...?

Adam is right, 2 months seem to be a critical stage for some reason. I also lost a couple at that age, but I had the osmosis problem at that time too, so I can't remember if I lost any due to unknown reasons... I should have kept notes :(

I remember Titch was about that age though... He was so special wasn't he, we should have some sort of memorial over him! See what happens when you give your fish names?! They get remembered! 8)
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

My appologies for joining the discussion so late.

There does appear to be aslight trend in the fatalities in zebrsa to date. The most common times to loose young fry seems to be within 3 weeks, or between 8-10 weeks. This has become apparent with my own spawns and from what I have seen those of the forum members.

Adam has pretty much covered the majority of the reasons that we suspect, but I am sure ther is more we could learn.

As Mceve stated, during the start of their development the osmosis problem seems to occur, resulting in fish engourged with water. As the fish get older they seem more proned to intestinal problems.

McEve...........I do believe titch was the founder of the "bloating" topic, and it's hopefully subsequent solution.......therfore he did not dye in vain!!!!! :wink: :D

Rob
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Post by clint8 »

Hi guys,

If you are so worried about intestinal blockages you should do a salt treatment for your fish every 3 months. Its just like deworming your pet cats n dogs.
I use it on most of my catfish even discus and they seem to have no problems. I use it as a short term bath so i use 30grams to 10litres of water :wink: .

Just my 2 cents 8) ,
Clint
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KenW
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Post by KenW »

Thanks guys for the information. It's better late than never.
I will have to continue to monitor them. For now everything seems good.


Ken
Des
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Post by Des »

Hi Ken,

I have had a pretty traumatic two weeks where I lost 9 babies out of the second last clutch of 16.When they started dieing, I thought it might be due to very low ph, so added hard tap water to rectify this. They still kept on dieing ,so emptied them into the tank with the adults, thinking it might have been due to the brooder .Still they died, and were not feeding well,so put them back into the brooder which I had cleaned. They continued dieing, so a couple of days ago started a course of ESHA2000 and ESHA Exit treatment, just in case it is due to some pathogen/parasite/bacterial or fungal agent which is not visible.
The last clutch of 12 babies in another tank, touch wood, are fine.
Having said that, regarding your query,zebras a couple of months old, do tend to eat food thats just too big for them, which they cannot regurgitate. Bloodworm being the main culprit.

Regards,
Des
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Post by McEve »

I'm so sorry to hear that Des :( It must have terrible watching them go one after the other :( I also lost some when they were about a month+ old, seems like that might be a critical age!
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Post by Adam »

Hi Des,

I'm sorry to hear that you have lost so many fry from your last batch. :cry: I hope that the remaining fry are doing well, as McEve said it must have been upsetting to watch them go one by one. Was this batch of fry from the same parents as your other broods?
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Post by Des »

Hi Adam and McEve,

Thanks for your concern. You are so right. It was awful watching one by one dying and not knowing what might be wrong.
The brood of 16 (that I lost 9) and the brood of 12 were from 2 different pairs in 2 different tanks, and are in brooders in their respective tanks. Both were born around the same time. Havent lost any more since starting the treatments. The brood of 12 L046 and 20 L201 ,in the same tank,are fine.
I have heard that fry from all species are very prone to velvet disease ( which is not easily visible) due to temp variation during water changes. I dont know whether this is in fact true and whether this could have been the problem.
By the way ,has any one used Cyclopeeze on their fry. I found some freeze dried at a LFS and started using yesterday , in addition to the other foods.

Regards,
Des

Regards,
Des.
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Post by pleco_farmer »

I've seen improvement in the early mortality rates by feeding microworms. The 0 to 4 week die offs are now rare. Once fry have been moved to growout, they are fed daily on a mix of frozen baby brine, cyclopeeze and microworms. A #1 hydrosponge gives the fry a place to hide, most of the frozen collects on the filter, which is easily cleaned, and the fry eat from the bottom or browse from the sponge. The microworms provide live food throughout the day, so they can feed at their leisure. Over the past six months, reduced losses between 0 and 12 weeks to 2 out of 72.

Still working on the twelve week issue. Last year, lost approximately 8% between 12 and 16 weeks. Additionally, this tended to be one or two out of a given spawn. After sixteen weeks, losses are negligible, so I am starting to believe that there is a developmental issue around twelve weeks.

Stastically, 8% looks a little high. However, we are dealing with small spawns, and you will never count half a death. Let's say that you had the same one death occur in an ancistrus spawn. This mortality rate would be smaller than 1%. What is important is that these deaths occur in a "clump" over time, equally spread across many spawns.
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KenW
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Post by KenW »

Thanks for all the additional info.

Sorry to here about your losses Des.

About two weeks ago I lost another two, out of the blue. My water change and feeding schedule has not changed. The 2 I lost were slightly less than an inch long, putting it right around the 12 week time frame.

Can this problem just be weaker genetics/ weaker siblings in a spawn :?: A typical mortality rate? Or do you think it is a husbandry problem on our part.

Ken
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Post by Barbie »

Sorry to hear about your losses Des :(. I know I was sick at heart when I lost the 10 fry the time I started them on bloodworms too soon. It's a terrible learning curve with these guys.

With that said, I feed cyclopeeze to my fry, but the frozen, not the freeze dried. I can't foresee the dry causing any problems though.

Barbie
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Post by Tokis-Phoenix »

clint8 wrote:Hi guys,

If you are so worried about intestinal blockages you should do a salt treatment for your fish every 3 months. Its just like deworming your pet cats n dogs.
I use it on most of my catfish even discus and they seem to have no problems. I use it as a short term bath so i use 30grams to 10litres of water :wink: .

Just my 2 cents 8) ,
Clint
I would just like to point out that salt is bad for catfish as they are intolerant to as it burns their protective slime layer actually making them more prone to desease, salt can be lethal to salt intolerant fish and if you used it onto plec fry as sensitive as zebras,you would be putting their lives at risk.
Salt should only be used for a medical treatment and the deseases it can treat are limited and can only be used on salt tolerant fish, it also has to be aquarium salt and not somthing like table salt- aquarium salt is also needed on brackish fish for them to survive.
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Post by Des »

Hi all,

I have never tried using salt with catfish so cannot comment, but would be very apprehensive using it on my catfish.

Recently have got back into keeping and breeding discus,and found some of my first batch of fry approx 1 month old slowly going dark ,looking emaciated ,not feeding very well and dieing.
Looked at UKDA (UK Discus association) forum/website and found that it is common to use an "internal" bacteria treatment (eg. Interpet No9 or Interpet Anti Ulcer- pond fish treatment -which is more cost effective ), together with Cuprazin ( which is a copper based treatment for Marine/Brackish systems), both as a treatment, as well as a preventative, for internal bacterial problems ( and external parasites).
Their suggested treatment was :3 day course of treatment with the interpet treament used , full dose on day 1 and a half dose on days 2 and 3.Full dosage of Cuprazin on all 3 days.
I have now used this treatment for 2 days so far on the baby Discus and have noticed a marked improvement on both their movement and their appetite.

The zebra babies that died were not darkened but were emaciated in spite of sufficient food being offered
When I next have a batch of L046 Zebra babies I will definetly use the Internal bacteria treatment as a preventative treatment when they are about 3 weeks old but will have to find an alternative to Cuprazin as especially Catfish are very sensitive to this treatment. I may use Protozin ,instead.

Regards,
Des
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