Well, I went back to bed, thought some more, and here I am again after only 5 minutes.
My theory.....I just put KCl in the tank right? Well, the KCl did NOT have time to settle down before I did the tank water changes.
So that milky color was UNDISSOLVED KCl!!!!
So either the afflicted Zebras injested it somehow, or the KCl dissolved in thier tank! This may have produced a Chlorine spike or whatever. Whatever it was, it was not good. So I am sure that there was undissolved KCl going into the tanks that I had done water changes on that day. And those were the tanks I had all the trouble with. Only question is, why just some of the Zebras and not all in those problem tanks? Unless just some of the fish injested it somehow. It was always the morning I found the bodies.
Any more thoughts from you guys? I'm going back to bed again.....maybe I'll get another brainwave.
Good night for good this time.
They won't stop dying!!
ANY ammonia at all indicates a filter bacteria failure. If you have other tanks running in the house, you can rinse filter media from them in the tank having a problem and help jumpstart the colonies again. Large water changes with differing parameters are something that can definitely cause this problem. Ammonia is exponentially more toxic, the higher your pH is. It sounds like when you do a water change, it would be about 7.5, but would creep up to 8.4 or so by the next day. If that's true, you made that ammonia 10 times more toxic to them over that 24 hour period. Water changes would definitely be causing fluctuations they couldn't handle. If you have another tank that is healthy and stable, move the zebras or swap filters or something.
Water run through a water softener shouldn't be used for fish, IMO, if the water you were starting with was very hard. They end up with a ton of salt in their water that way. You might go ahead and buy a pond hydrometer to test what they're having to live in. I know it tastes nasty to drink water softened water. RO water with some plain tap added for buffering capacity would be a much better idea.
The tank being up for months just means it was cycled at some point, not that it is NOW. Meds, being shut off to long for maintenance, all kinds of things can kill those bacteria colonies. The important part is recognizing that they've been killed and even buy some biospira or something to jumpstart them again! It really works, when you can find any available.
Barbie
Water run through a water softener shouldn't be used for fish, IMO, if the water you were starting with was very hard. They end up with a ton of salt in their water that way. You might go ahead and buy a pond hydrometer to test what they're having to live in. I know it tastes nasty to drink water softened water. RO water with some plain tap added for buffering capacity would be a much better idea.
The tank being up for months just means it was cycled at some point, not that it is NOW. Meds, being shut off to long for maintenance, all kinds of things can kill those bacteria colonies. The important part is recognizing that they've been killed and even buy some biospira or something to jumpstart them again! It really works, when you can find any available.
Barbie
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I emailed the company that makes the KCl water softening pellets. This is what I got back:
Mrs. Urchyshyn,
There is a surfactant added to clean accumulated greases from the resin bed and an anti-caking agent to soften any caking that might form in the softener. The way a water softener functions, they will never be in your house water unless you taste potassium chloride in your water. In response to your second question, potassium is fish toxic, would advise against using with fish.
Jerry Poe
Technical Director
Damn damn damn!!!
It should say that on the damn bag!! Who all thinks the KCl is to blame?
I am about to go downstairs and scoop out all the salt (KCl) out of that damn thing. I hereby BLAME the KCl pellets.
Before I softened my water, it was 12 grains hard. Do you guys think the Zebras will be ok in just my hard water? Sure I'll have a lot of plumbing to scrub, but would it be better to use raw water INSTEAD of softening with NaCl? Barbie, do you think I still should use NaCl now that you know how hard my raw water is? (I didn't have any problems before with the salt (NaCl).)
I must add, that adding RO water may become very difficult, but I am contemplatind drilling a hole in the floor under my kitchen sink and running a hose to my fishroom in the basement.
Please guys...I'm getting frustrated here. What should I do?
Mrs. Urchyshyn,
There is a surfactant added to clean accumulated greases from the resin bed and an anti-caking agent to soften any caking that might form in the softener. The way a water softener functions, they will never be in your house water unless you taste potassium chloride in your water. In response to your second question, potassium is fish toxic, would advise against using with fish.
Jerry Poe
Technical Director
Damn damn damn!!!
It should say that on the damn bag!! Who all thinks the KCl is to blame?
I am about to go downstairs and scoop out all the salt (KCl) out of that damn thing. I hereby BLAME the KCl pellets.
Before I softened my water, it was 12 grains hard. Do you guys think the Zebras will be ok in just my hard water? Sure I'll have a lot of plumbing to scrub, but would it be better to use raw water INSTEAD of softening with NaCl? Barbie, do you think I still should use NaCl now that you know how hard my raw water is? (I didn't have any problems before with the salt (NaCl).)
I must add, that adding RO water may become very difficult, but I am contemplatind drilling a hole in the floor under my kitchen sink and running a hose to my fishroom in the basement.
Please guys...I'm getting frustrated here. What should I do?
I work fast when I'm mad. The KCl is OUT!!
Still not sure what I should do. I can't afford a new RO unit, but I could use the little one under the sink. I can only get enough water out to fill one large bucket. I could do one tank a day and by the time the last one is done, I could start over and it would be time for the first tank again.
OR, do you guys think the Zebras will be ok in just normal raw water....it would be pH 8.5 and 12 grains hard. High kH. But Barbie remembered that it is 7.6 out of the tap and then RISES after 2 days to 8.5.
OR, should I try the NaCl pellets again? I did not have any trouble with it before. I got the bright idea to use KCl because it was more plant safe and "healthier". Maybe for plants and humans, but not fish.
What to do...what to do.
Still not sure what I should do. I can't afford a new RO unit, but I could use the little one under the sink. I can only get enough water out to fill one large bucket. I could do one tank a day and by the time the last one is done, I could start over and it would be time for the first tank again.
OR, do you guys think the Zebras will be ok in just normal raw water....it would be pH 8.5 and 12 grains hard. High kH. But Barbie remembered that it is 7.6 out of the tap and then RISES after 2 days to 8.5.
OR, should I try the NaCl pellets again? I did not have any trouble with it before. I got the bright idea to use KCl because it was more plant safe and "healthier". Maybe for plants and humans, but not fish.
What to do...what to do.
Hi Wandj,
I'm really sorry about all your fish
That's a tough pill to swallow. With regards to your pH problem, I have read articles from people that have kept, and even spawned zebras in pH as high as yours. If you do decide to just use your raw tap water, you can combat the rising pH by storing the water you will need for changes until it reaches equilibrium. To do this, you just get a large bucket or tank that will hold enough water for all the changes you want to do, then heat and aerate it overnight. This should be sufficient to stabilize the parameters before adding it to your tanks. I know many people who do this, and I myself have spawned discus using this method with my own tap water ( pH 7.8 ).
If, however, you do decide to go with the RO, you need to remineralize it with a product such as Kent RO Right, or simply mix it with some of your raw tap water, otherwise straight RO is no good for your fish either. You said you can't afford a new RO unit, but there are some reasonably priced systems out there. I actually just picked up a 6 stage, 100GPD unit for $90US, including shipping. I don't know if the guys I got mine from will ship to Canada, but it might be worth having a look at.
Val
I'm really sorry about all your fish
That's a tough pill to swallow. With regards to your pH problem, I have read articles from people that have kept, and even spawned zebras in pH as high as yours. If you do decide to just use your raw tap water, you can combat the rising pH by storing the water you will need for changes until it reaches equilibrium. To do this, you just get a large bucket or tank that will hold enough water for all the changes you want to do, then heat and aerate it overnight. This should be sufficient to stabilize the parameters before adding it to your tanks. I know many people who do this, and I myself have spawned discus using this method with my own tap water ( pH 7.8 ). If, however, you do decide to go with the RO, you need to remineralize it with a product such as Kent RO Right, or simply mix it with some of your raw tap water, otherwise straight RO is no good for your fish either. You said you can't afford a new RO unit, but there are some reasonably priced systems out there. I actually just picked up a 6 stage, 100GPD unit for $90US, including shipping. I don't know if the guys I got mine from will ship to Canada, but it might be worth having a look at.
Val
You know, EVERY time I fiddle with my water chemistry, I get burned!
I took 2 pieces of advice from a friend once and both things that he suggested killed fish. One thing was to add peat. Well, I did that and lost a nice big female. I told him what happened. He said maybe the water was TOO soft.
Ok, next thing I did was to use "pH Down" to lower my pH. Nice one....lost another nice big female.
I think for the time being, I am going to just use my raw water. I have water lines going into my tanks. I don't have to dump a huge amount in to do a water change....I could just very slightly turn the ball valve and have it drip or trickle in. I could do this and I don't think it will do any harm. In the tanks I do not have lines in, I have done 50% and more of water changes and no fish died. Go back and see the blurp of how I saved the rest of my fish in my community tank by doing an 80% change. Enough fiddling with the water....I am going to try to leave it be and very slowly do my changes. I have a Python hose that connects to the tap for the tanks that do not have a water line.... I could even run water very slowly into these tanks too.
Anyway, I will do this for awhile and I'll keep ya'll posted.
Oh, I did lose that one Zebra that was out in the open. All the rest look fine at this time. But I did lose an otto yesterday....after a water change! (Before I thought of the KCl thing.)
You know, I asked a lot of fish people I knew what they thought of KCl. No one knew anything about it. No one said "stop, it's bad!". I'm curious, did anyone here know about KCl being toxic to fish?
I took 2 pieces of advice from a friend once and both things that he suggested killed fish. One thing was to add peat. Well, I did that and lost a nice big female. I told him what happened. He said maybe the water was TOO soft.
Ok, next thing I did was to use "pH Down" to lower my pH. Nice one....lost another nice big female.
I think for the time being, I am going to just use my raw water. I have water lines going into my tanks. I don't have to dump a huge amount in to do a water change....I could just very slightly turn the ball valve and have it drip or trickle in. I could do this and I don't think it will do any harm. In the tanks I do not have lines in, I have done 50% and more of water changes and no fish died. Go back and see the blurp of how I saved the rest of my fish in my community tank by doing an 80% change. Enough fiddling with the water....I am going to try to leave it be and very slowly do my changes. I have a Python hose that connects to the tap for the tanks that do not have a water line.... I could even run water very slowly into these tanks too.
Anyway, I will do this for awhile and I'll keep ya'll posted.
Oh, I did lose that one Zebra that was out in the open. All the rest look fine at this time. But I did lose an otto yesterday....after a water change! (Before I thought of the KCl thing.)
You know, I asked a lot of fish people I knew what they thought of KCl. No one knew anything about it. No one said "stop, it's bad!". I'm curious, did anyone here know about KCl being toxic to fish?
Did a gH test. It's been about 8 hours since I took all the KCl out. My test took 9 drops to turn blue, so 9 x 20 = 180ppm. (Might I add, that with salt I could only add ONE drop and it turned blue)
I don't know where it will finish up, so I'll test again tomorrow.
As an experiment, I have a small tank of "cull" fish from Rainbows (well, there is just one cull in there with 3 pygmy cories). Just to see, I dumped in some pH 7 buffer (never used it before).
I had just fed them last night and dumped in one scoop. pH was 8.7. It dropped like a rock to 8.4. Fish were fine and continued to feed. This morning I dumped in another scoop. It is now pH 7.91. A difference of about .8 within 8 hours an they are still happy. Will do it again after work.
I don't know where it will finish up, so I'll test again tomorrow.
As an experiment, I have a small tank of "cull" fish from Rainbows (well, there is just one cull in there with 3 pygmy cories). Just to see, I dumped in some pH 7 buffer (never used it before).
I had just fed them last night and dumped in one scoop. pH was 8.7. It dropped like a rock to 8.4. Fish were fine and continued to feed. This morning I dumped in another scoop. It is now pH 7.91. A difference of about .8 within 8 hours an they are still happy. Will do it again after work.
I think you would be best off to acclimate your fish to your normal water parameters so waterchanges will be easy and you can avoid using a bunch of additives and chemicals. This will make it easier for you to make waterchanges too.
Melting snow and collecting rainwater is an inexpensive way of getting softer and more acid water - I don't know if it would work for you but I read of a lady who spawned many pike cichlids for the first time by using rain water which she collects in barrels and tubs.
KCl - potassium chloride just sounds wrong for fish, usually you add waterconditioners to remove chlorine and I would have to guess that chloride is similar and the function of it is to chemically "clean" your water. This would also explain bacteria dieoff in the filters and elevated ammonia levels. But hindsight is 20/20.
Anyway - I'm sorry about your losses and hope the situation is under control now.
Melting snow and collecting rainwater is an inexpensive way of getting softer and more acid water - I don't know if it would work for you but I read of a lady who spawned many pike cichlids for the first time by using rain water which she collects in barrels and tubs.
KCl - potassium chloride just sounds wrong for fish, usually you add waterconditioners to remove chlorine and I would have to guess that chloride is similar and the function of it is to chemically "clean" your water. This would also explain bacteria dieoff in the filters and elevated ammonia levels. But hindsight is 20/20.
Anyway - I'm sorry about your losses and hope the situation is under control now.
Wandj,
The price of RO units have come down dramatically recently.Please see attached link for seller on E-Bay (USA).
http://stores.ebay.com/Filter-Direct-store
The price of a good unit would be less than the cost of losing a zebra. I was even thinking of ordering one from the US , although prices in the UK have come down , are not as low as the US.
I have a few questions regarding your softener unit.
The brine solution whether common salt or kcl is only used when the softening resin needs to be recharged. Could this "waste" solution have gone into your tanks or was there a way it could have gone directly to drain ?
Under normal use either of these salts would only be in the softened water in very small amounts. The resin absorbs calcium and magnesium carbonates and gives off the chloride salts in exchange. When recharging using the brine solution, the resins absorbs the chlorides and gives of the carbonates ( which may have been the white colour you saw ).This should go to waste.
Potassium salts whether sulphate/ chloride etc are required in miniscule amounts for body/nerve function etc.in fish,birds, humans etc. In higher amounts ,is dangerous . I believe, causes major organ failure.
Was watching a reality crime program a few weeks ago. Person had died whilst in hospital due to unknown reasons. After many weeks of tests found that person had excessive potassium salts in body (causing heart failure). They found that this had been added by killer to drip ,in hospital.!!!!
I would be very careful if you are thinking about using ph stabilisers. These state ph can be stabilised at 6.5 or 7 etc. They are loaded with phosphates.
I currently use dilute sulphuric acid on the odd occasions when I HAVE to reduce the ph. However it is pointless using PH down or acids in hard water as the hardness in the water buffers the ph back up. Of course the fish dont appreciate this fluctuating ph. You need to reduce the hardness first using RO water , then use ph down IF REQUIRED .
Regards,
Des.
The price of RO units have come down dramatically recently.Please see attached link for seller on E-Bay (USA).
http://stores.ebay.com/Filter-Direct-store
The price of a good unit would be less than the cost of losing a zebra. I was even thinking of ordering one from the US , although prices in the UK have come down , are not as low as the US.
I have a few questions regarding your softener unit.
The brine solution whether common salt or kcl is only used when the softening resin needs to be recharged. Could this "waste" solution have gone into your tanks or was there a way it could have gone directly to drain ?
Under normal use either of these salts would only be in the softened water in very small amounts. The resin absorbs calcium and magnesium carbonates and gives off the chloride salts in exchange. When recharging using the brine solution, the resins absorbs the chlorides and gives of the carbonates ( which may have been the white colour you saw ).This should go to waste.
Potassium salts whether sulphate/ chloride etc are required in miniscule amounts for body/nerve function etc.in fish,birds, humans etc. In higher amounts ,is dangerous . I believe, causes major organ failure.
Was watching a reality crime program a few weeks ago. Person had died whilst in hospital due to unknown reasons. After many weeks of tests found that person had excessive potassium salts in body (causing heart failure). They found that this had been added by killer to drip ,in hospital.!!!!
I would be very careful if you are thinking about using ph stabilisers. These state ph can be stabilised at 6.5 or 7 etc. They are loaded with phosphates.
I currently use dilute sulphuric acid on the odd occasions when I HAVE to reduce the ph. However it is pointless using PH down or acids in hard water as the hardness in the water buffers the ph back up. Of course the fish dont appreciate this fluctuating ph. You need to reduce the hardness first using RO water , then use ph down IF REQUIRED .
Regards,
Des.
The unit I referred to in my previous post is similar to the one Des linked to. I bought mine off Ebay, I know a lot of people are skeptical about this, but I can personally vouch for the seller I bought mine from. I hooked the unit up and it worked excellently first time around. I paid US$70 for the unit and US$22.50 shipping. In my opinion, you can't get a much better deal than that for an RO/DI unit.
Val
Val
Wandj,
I personally do not bother to alter water parameters such as pH, GH etc unless I use RO. Most fish will live happily in most water conditions it is the changes that cause stress, disease and ultimately death.
I really don't mean to sound patronising when I say this but you have lost A LOT of Zebras and is must be heartbreaking. Is £100-200 (your equivalent cost) really a lot of money for an RO unit when you are taking about Zebras??
I literally can't fit an RO unit in my present house but would have one like a shot. Nothing fancy, just a 10gal/day unit. They don't produce 10gal/day but for a small to medium scale hobby they are ideal.
If you really cannot afford/fit an RO unit I would advise you leave your water parameters as they are. Your zebras will thank you for it and will be fine, although breeding might be less likely but still possible.
As, I think, has already been mentioned. You do not get a true reading for pH etc when you test water from the tap. You need to let it settle, preferably with aeration.
Good luck
Tom
I personally do not bother to alter water parameters such as pH, GH etc unless I use RO. Most fish will live happily in most water conditions it is the changes that cause stress, disease and ultimately death.
I really don't mean to sound patronising when I say this but you have lost A LOT of Zebras and is must be heartbreaking. Is £100-200 (your equivalent cost) really a lot of money for an RO unit when you are taking about Zebras??
I literally can't fit an RO unit in my present house but would have one like a shot. Nothing fancy, just a 10gal/day unit. They don't produce 10gal/day but for a small to medium scale hobby they are ideal.
If you really cannot afford/fit an RO unit I would advise you leave your water parameters as they are. Your zebras will thank you for it and will be fine, although breeding might be less likely but still possible.
As, I think, has already been mentioned. You do not get a true reading for pH etc when you test water from the tap. You need to let it settle, preferably with aeration.
Good luck
Tom
It's not really a matter of money. But my other half is not supportive of my hobby and we have had ill "discussions" about it. I have already had to take apart 2 x 85 gal tubs because he complained they were taking up too much space. So I really don't have the room either, mentally.
I have decided to leave well enough alone. When I first got my fish while living here, I never had any of this space-age water equipment crap. I started with some Rainbows. By next morning they were spawning in my tank. This is pH 8.5 and 12 grains hard, high kH. Little or no iron luckily. I also work an average of 72 hours a week...have to pay for my loses with OT. So I am not here to babysit any problems that come up. I need STABILITY damnit!
Also, not meaning to de-value the price of Zebras, but the ones I lost averages in price from CAN$40-$80.
And I don't need to be reminded of how valuable they are...I am very well aware of that. And how was I supposed to know K was bad? I did ask all my fish friends what they thought of it and no one said it was bad. My NaCl did not harm anything. According to the bag and the PRICE of this jobbie, I was under the impression it was BETTER! I looked on the internet and sites said it replaces the work NaCl does and is healthier for you and plants. It left out the part where it says "bad for fish".
I have not had any more trouble in the last couple of days. Maybe because I have not turned on any water.
Tom2600...I like what you said. Stability is key. If I tried to mimic their natural habitat, it would be a losing battle and lost fish.
And INXS, I agree that these "cleaning agents" in the salts could definately kill off my bacteria. Nice to know that too when it's too late.
I think I've beat this one up enough. I really appreciate all your help. It sounds like no one here knew that K was toxic. So I hope anyone with a water softener takes heed and does not use KCl.
Also, there is no Potassium test that I know of, so there is no way I can know for sure that it entered the tanks, or if it was the cleaning agents, or whatever.
I have decided to leave well enough alone. When I first got my fish while living here, I never had any of this space-age water equipment crap. I started with some Rainbows. By next morning they were spawning in my tank. This is pH 8.5 and 12 grains hard, high kH. Little or no iron luckily. I also work an average of 72 hours a week...have to pay for my loses with OT. So I am not here to babysit any problems that come up. I need STABILITY damnit!
Also, not meaning to de-value the price of Zebras, but the ones I lost averages in price from CAN$40-$80.
And I don't need to be reminded of how valuable they are...I am very well aware of that. And how was I supposed to know K was bad? I did ask all my fish friends what they thought of it and no one said it was bad. My NaCl did not harm anything. According to the bag and the PRICE of this jobbie, I was under the impression it was BETTER! I looked on the internet and sites said it replaces the work NaCl does and is healthier for you and plants. It left out the part where it says "bad for fish".
I have not had any more trouble in the last couple of days. Maybe because I have not turned on any water.
Tom2600...I like what you said. Stability is key. If I tried to mimic their natural habitat, it would be a losing battle and lost fish.
And INXS, I agree that these "cleaning agents" in the salts could definately kill off my bacteria. Nice to know that too when it's too late.
I think I've beat this one up enough. I really appreciate all your help. It sounds like no one here knew that K was toxic. So I hope anyone with a water softener takes heed and does not use KCl.
Also, there is no Potassium test that I know of, so there is no way I can know for sure that it entered the tanks, or if it was the cleaning agents, or whatever.
