Fish Disease, please help

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:26 am

Hi guys, i know that this is way off Zebra topic buti know that many of you are experienced aquarists and may have a solution to my problem,

I have a breeding group of caeruleus in a malawi community tank. with a couple of hongi red tops and two rustys+1"fry. My water parameters are 0 with nitrate being 20ppm, (tap water level) The tank has been set up for two years and no fish have been added/ nothing out of the ordinary has been done to the tank or its inhabitants, the tank is over filtered and i change the water every third/ fourth day approx 1/3 water change.

I have noticed that my oldest female caeruleus occasionally has a slight whitish hue to her body, then developes rough patches of skin/ scales with reddening round the scales, this eventually developes into a whitesih hole in the skin. The holes/ rough patches occur round the head, caudle peduncle, and flanks of the fish. I have attached some photos to help you ID the illness if poss. I have looked into the possibility of Hole in the head/hexamiata but don't know enough about it. The female has recovered each time but now i notice that four /5 other caeruleus have been affected-Please help

female with advances 'holes'

signs of the disease starting.

This is a photo of the female when it got bad before

I have never had any diseases/problems with my fish in 4 years of fishkeeping and hterefore am not sure what to do. I have tried Huey Hung general Killer but to no avail

The fish affected also are begining to flisk and flash against rocks as well as shake their heads.

Thanks

sorry for the poor photos, they were taken in a rush this evening

I have also noticed this link on the same board but no real answers have been given by contributors there either. The symptoms are identical, so are the sores on the fish http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/view ... hp?t=74514

Please help

Tristan

Ed_R · Post by **Ed_R** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:48 am

THough it doesn't appear to be hole-in-the-head , you might try treating it for that?

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:27 am

Done that, it doesn't make much difference Hmm.... but thanks though

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:14 pm

Wonder where Adam is... he knows a lot about ulcers - which it might be in this case?

Des · Post by **Des** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:41 pm

Hi Tristan,

That is definetly NOT hole in the head or Spironucleus, so therefore using a treatment such as Metronidazole (from a vet) would be a waste of time.
Head shaking is sometimes a sign of Shimmies.
Flicking is normally a sign of some form of external parasite,the sites which may be later turning into the ulcers/ open wounds.

Never had this problem before but If I had, would try using ESHA 2000 in combination with ESHA EXIT.
(ESHA 2000 treats primary and secondary fungal infections,bacterial skin infectionsand skin/gill parasites. An added advantage is its ability to assist wound healing and to protect the skin layer.)

Regards,
Des.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:58 pm

PM sent Tristan, I can post here later on for the benefit of the others if you wish.

Adam

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:12 pm

Adam wrote:PM sent Tristan, I can post here later on for the benefit of the others if you wish.

Adam

But of course, can you ever learn too much? I would find it very interesting to see what your opinion is regarding this issue.

Tristan · Post by **Tristan** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:24 am

Adam, please feel free to post our PM's. It might be useful for others to read
Tristan

Des · Post by **Des** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:47 pm

Hi Tristan,

I think you might find the attached link useful although it relates to pondfish. Also check out ulcers under related topics.

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/disease/bacterial.htm

I did see another site with a picture identical to ones that you posted but cannot find it at the moment. Was called "hole in the side disease" caused by gram negative bacteria as above.

Regards,
Des.

KenW · Post by **KenW** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:49 am

Tristan,

this is what I know. Most sores and hole in the side is caused by gram negative bacteria, specifically Aeromonas or Pseudomonas. These bad bacteria is always present to some degree, but the population numbers are a lot of times dependent on the cleanliness of the tanks and filters. The more detiritus or uneaten food or dirty filters the higher the population.

Under normal/good conditions the fishes slime coat and immune system is able to fight off the bacteria. If the fish is stressed and the immune system is not up to par, or slime coat is damaged then the opportunity for the bacteria to invade the fish is very likely.

In the case of pond fish this typically is causes by parasites, ie flukes, costia, chilodoella, trichodina, or from stress due to poor environment (winter to spring changes or bad pond maintenance/design)

In a tank the possibilities may be stress caused by other tank mates, stress from water parameters changing to much, damage from tank decorations, or parasites. Dirty filters and tank decorations that may trap organic material increase the bad bacteria population thus providing a higher possibility of an infection.

My suggestion is to keep the environment as clean as possible from organic material and waste from accumulating in the tank and to keep the tank paramters stable. Then I would observe to see if there is a lot of fighting or disbutes that may cause stress to the individuals. If the fish are constantly flashing or scraping on objects you may have a parasite problem and would need to treat accordingly. If there are any sores or damage then treat with antibiotic that will kill gram negative bacteria. Keeping in mind that any treatments will set back your filters.

This is what I have learned and hopefully this maybe of help. Please feel free to correct or add if I messed up or missed something.

Ken

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 1:12 am

McEve wrote:But of course, can you ever learn too much? I would find it very interesting to see what your opinion is regarding this issue.

Here's the PM I sent to Tristan.

Tristan,

I read your initial post on the forum again, looking for clues of what your problem could be. I am almost a 100% sure that your fish have body and or gill flukes. What gave it away was the fact that they have had it before and it went away and the appearancerance of a whitish film on your females body. Also the reddening around the fins, flanks and caudal area, these are areas that flukes like to congregate. The flicking can also be a sign but fish can often flick and shimmie for other reasons. The whitish film that you have noticed is the fishes immune response to the parasites, as the fish becomes increasingly more irritated it over produces body mucus. Further along the stages of infection the fish will no longer be able to produce mucus as a defence as the cells responsible become exhausted. It is at this stage that the fish will succumb to secondary bacterial infections and will appear to look "rough", infact at this stage it is likely to actually be rough to the touch as most of the body slime will have been lost.

Flukes are always present in small numbers in healthy tanks and fish are quite capable of dealing with them. Have you seen perfectly healthy fish flick or rub themselves against objects from time to time? This behaviour is similar to birds preening or taking dust baths, they are ridding themselves of ecto parasites.

The best course of action will be to treat the flukes first, I believe that Huey Hung do a treatment for flukes. Make sure that it is effective against both types of fluke, Gyrodactylus the skin fluke and Dactylogyrus the gill fluke. Diagnosis of which fluke is responsible is only possible through the inspection of a body scrape under a microscope, I use to do this, if you lived nearer I would have done it for you. I got my second hand microscope for £150 and I use to take body scrapes from my koi every now and then, I would say it's well worth the money. I don't know how many times I caught things well before they became a problem.

As for the body lesions I honestly think that if you treat for the flukes IMMEDIATELY they should heal up by themselves. They only appear to have penetrated the very top layers of the epidermis. If they don't heal up on their own we can discuss the next course of action.

If you can try to identify what caused the population explosion of flukes: the usual factors are ailing water quality, overcrowding and water of a high organic content.

Other traetments to consider which I found particularly effective against flukes are: Chloromine T, Masoten(Organophosphate) and potassium Permanganate. Extreme caution should be used if you choose to use one of these treatments as they are for koi. I would half the dosage in every instance of use but increase the number of applications. You will have to perform several treatments to really make a dent in the fluke population, regardless of which treatment you opt for.

Good luck, I'm sure the treatment will work.

Regards.

Adam

Des · Post by **Des** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:57 pm

Tristan,

To cure parasites I have used WSP parasite killer by Pond Doctor and also Medifin by Tetra at various times. Although both are pond tratments I have used both at various times in my tropical tanks at the same dosage as stated on the bottle. In fact I now use Medifin as a quarantine treatment for any new tropical fish (including zebras) .
Have you decided what you are going to use?.

Des