Time is passing so quickly. It's already 3 years since this forum was started. I belive I have lost sight of where people are in their breeding program!
So... to help getting an overview, what generation is your latest fry?
what generation is your fish?
Hi
Just a small point on the poll, my understanding is that F1, F2 F3 is not necessarily generation.
Breed two unrelated F1's, you get F1 offspring, cross an unrelated F1 with an F3 you get an F2.
The increase in the number only applies when you breed related fish.
Take care
Dave
Breed two unrelated F1's, you get F1 offspring, cross an unrelated F1 with an F3 you get an F2.
The increase in the number only applies when you breed related fish.
Take care
Dave
The system is confusing because there are a few ways it is used.
There is the genetics format, and there is the common hobbyist way which varies.
The hobbyist adapted the F system for its own use.
So geneticists and scientists say its used wrong.
If you adapt something, that does not make it wrong.
In the adaptation the letter should have been changed though, to avoid the confusion.
In the hobbyist format such as how we label cichlids, all we are concerned with is how far a fish is away from being wild.
Since many believe that wild fish are superior they want to know.
In the geneticist format, F0 does not exist, so they say we are wrong for using it, but again, its a system we adapted, so we can do what ever we want with it, and create new symbols.
So in the hobbyist format F0 equals wild.
F1 equals one level from wild.
F2 equals 2 levels from wild.
But it can also mean, simply how far away from your test set, or your parent group which is how it is used in genetics to describe genetic variability or diversity along a line.
Guppies, which are hundreds of generations from wild can also participate in this usage, as do many angel fish and discus breeders who often do not use wild fish, but sometimes do cross them back to wild.
The parent group of a red male guppy, and a black female would be called P.
the first generation would be called F1, and the fry from these F1 would be called F2 and so on.
again, they are hundreds of generations from wild.
In genetics, you could cross unrelated F1 to unrelated F2, and you would then go back to naming them F1 because they are unrelated and thus genetic diverse.
This is where the confusion would be, because in the genetic system you really could create F1's all the time without having wild parents.
They could even be inbred F5 plus inbred F6, as long as the F5 and F6 parents are not related the fry would be F1.
see the guppy example.
This would be misleading to some people, though not a lie.
As some buyers would think that the F1 fry would only come from F0/WC parents.
In genetics, urelated F2 + unrelated F2 = F1.
In modified hobbyist format F2 + F2, related or not would be F3.
anyway, both are the truth and could be the same exact fry, but one is abit misleading.
So it pays to ask what the parents are, and if they are related.
again, we should have not used the letter F.
That way the geneticist could say the fry are F1, and we can say the fry are X3, or like in Canada they use the letter G instead.
There is the genetics format, and there is the common hobbyist way which varies.
The hobbyist adapted the F system for its own use.
So geneticists and scientists say its used wrong.
If you adapt something, that does not make it wrong.
In the adaptation the letter should have been changed though, to avoid the confusion.
In the hobbyist format such as how we label cichlids, all we are concerned with is how far a fish is away from being wild.
Since many believe that wild fish are superior they want to know.
In the geneticist format, F0 does not exist, so they say we are wrong for using it, but again, its a system we adapted, so we can do what ever we want with it, and create new symbols.
So in the hobbyist format F0 equals wild.
F1 equals one level from wild.
F2 equals 2 levels from wild.
But it can also mean, simply how far away from your test set, or your parent group which is how it is used in genetics to describe genetic variability or diversity along a line.
Guppies, which are hundreds of generations from wild can also participate in this usage, as do many angel fish and discus breeders who often do not use wild fish, but sometimes do cross them back to wild.
The parent group of a red male guppy, and a black female would be called P.
the first generation would be called F1, and the fry from these F1 would be called F2 and so on.
again, they are hundreds of generations from wild.
In genetics, you could cross unrelated F1 to unrelated F2, and you would then go back to naming them F1 because they are unrelated and thus genetic diverse.
This is where the confusion would be, because in the genetic system you really could create F1's all the time without having wild parents.
They could even be inbred F5 plus inbred F6, as long as the F5 and F6 parents are not related the fry would be F1.
see the guppy example.
This would be misleading to some people, though not a lie.
As some buyers would think that the F1 fry would only come from F0/WC parents.
In genetics, urelated F2 + unrelated F2 = F1.
In modified hobbyist format F2 + F2, related or not would be F3.
anyway, both are the truth and could be the same exact fry, but one is abit misleading.
So it pays to ask what the parents are, and if they are related.
again, we should have not used the letter F.
That way the geneticist could say the fry are F1, and we can say the fry are X3, or like in Canada they use the letter G instead.
In my colony, my male is F0.
the rest of the group is F0, and unrelated F1 and F2.
unrelated, meaning the male is not a parent to the F1 and F2.
members of the F1 are related to each other, as are the F2 to each other.
So if i ever have fry.
Genetics would say my,
F0 male, plus unrelated F0 female equals F1.
F0 + unrelated F1 equals F1.
F0 + unrelated F2 equals F1.
Hobbyist would say.
F0 + F0 related or not = F1.
F0 + F1 related or not = F2.
F0 + F2 related or not = F3.
This is of course not a perfect system because people will say how the hell can F0+F2=F3, when F2+F2 also =F3 within the hobbyist usage.
Two same answers, yet a different starting problem!
And in genetics, using the same equation.
F0+unrelated F2=F1.
F2+related F2 =F3.
F2+unrelated F2=F1.
got a headache yet?
In genetics i can say my fry would be F1, using my F0 male and any of the 3 types of females.
I can't use the hobbyist system, because i no longer have any idea which of my fish are F0/F1/f2 because they are all in the same tank.
I only know which one is my F0 alpha male due to distinct features.
so my option would be to use the genetics option, which i would feel misleads my buyers.
i could simply label them as TR, tank raised.
or i can tell the buyers the father is WC/F0 and the females are random unrelated F0/F1/F2's.
With my frontosa i'm able to keep a tank of only WC/F0 frontosa and not mix generations, as its easy to get a whole wild group of frontosa, even the most expensive ones.
with zebra, i had to piece my group together, so if i wanted zebra i could not be specific with the filial level, i had to purchase what was available when they came up for sale.
the rest of the group is F0, and unrelated F1 and F2.
unrelated, meaning the male is not a parent to the F1 and F2.
members of the F1 are related to each other, as are the F2 to each other.
So if i ever have fry.
Genetics would say my,
F0 male, plus unrelated F0 female equals F1.
F0 + unrelated F1 equals F1.
F0 + unrelated F2 equals F1.
Hobbyist would say.
F0 + F0 related or not = F1.
F0 + F1 related or not = F2.
F0 + F2 related or not = F3.
This is of course not a perfect system because people will say how the hell can F0+F2=F3, when F2+F2 also =F3 within the hobbyist usage.
Two same answers, yet a different starting problem!
And in genetics, using the same equation.
F0+unrelated F2=F1.
F2+related F2 =F3.
F2+unrelated F2=F1.
got a headache yet?
In genetics i can say my fry would be F1, using my F0 male and any of the 3 types of females.
I can't use the hobbyist system, because i no longer have any idea which of my fish are F0/F1/f2 because they are all in the same tank.
I only know which one is my F0 alpha male due to distinct features.
so my option would be to use the genetics option, which i would feel misleads my buyers.
i could simply label them as TR, tank raised.
or i can tell the buyers the father is WC/F0 and the females are random unrelated F0/F1/F2's.
With my frontosa i'm able to keep a tank of only WC/F0 frontosa and not mix generations, as its easy to get a whole wild group of frontosa, even the most expensive ones.
with zebra, i had to piece my group together, so if i wanted zebra i could not be specific with the filial level, i had to purchase what was available when they came up for sale.
Hi again
I have voted, and it's first generation.
And thank you Tirzo13 for the detailed explanation.
I also prefer the genetic definition, not because I'm a genetecist.
It would be nice in say 3 years time to run the same poll again to compare.
As it stands at the moment, I think most people who post on this forum are breeding off Wild Caught. It also seems that the majority of Wild Caught Fish are males.
Having obtained young from 4 different sources over the past 18 months, it seems that some of the females are fast approaching sexual maturity, the males far from it.
The next stage is to place these females with some of the surplus males which are Wild Caught. The longevity of these fish allows such an approach, but doen't fit any of the above categories.
This does mean every time I get another group of young fish another tank.
I know of one individual who currently has 150 of these fish Wild Caughts and small groups of young fish who is not, and does not allow related fish to breed.
There are others who I am in contact with who are adopting the same approach, and I guess people I am not in contact with also, as you come across people who are creating additional colonies.
Personally when I acquire fish I would like to know whether they are F1, F2, F3 etc... in the genetic sense.
Take care
Dave
And thank you Tirzo13 for the detailed explanation.
I also prefer the genetic definition, not because I'm a genetecist.
It would be nice in say 3 years time to run the same poll again to compare.
As it stands at the moment, I think most people who post on this forum are breeding off Wild Caught. It also seems that the majority of Wild Caught Fish are males.
Having obtained young from 4 different sources over the past 18 months, it seems that some of the females are fast approaching sexual maturity, the males far from it.
The next stage is to place these females with some of the surplus males which are Wild Caught. The longevity of these fish allows such an approach, but doen't fit any of the above categories.
This does mean every time I get another group of young fish another tank.
I know of one individual who currently has 150 of these fish Wild Caughts and small groups of young fish who is not, and does not allow related fish to breed.
There are others who I am in contact with who are adopting the same approach, and I guess people I am not in contact with also, as you come across people who are creating additional colonies.
Personally when I acquire fish I would like to know whether they are F1, F2, F3 etc... in the genetic sense.
Take care
Dave
-
TwoTankAmin
- Moderator
- Posts: 1252
- Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 2:16 am
- Location: Westchester Co., NY
-
John
- Moderator
- Posts: 1612
- Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:58 pm
- Location: Hellevoetsluis / Holland
- Contact:
Not realy, i just wonder how this kind of system can be usefull as far as genetics concerns, i can see the usefullness of a family tree in genetics like they use on for example dogs, but don't think that's practical with fish.tirzo13 wrote:got a headache yet?
Maybe somebody can clear this up for me.
Greetings,
John
[img]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x276/hypancistrus-zebra/half.gif[/img]
John
[img]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x276/hypancistrus-zebra/half.gif[/img]
Hi again
Practical it is not, possible it is.
Inbreeding has been debated many times before, and at which time it becomes a problem also.
Eventually it will happen, so any action taken now will defer such a day.
I have been informed that to maintain a genetically viable population 50 breeding unrelated fish are required, in the case of L46 this will mean 50 independent colonies.
I think the effort is worth it, as do a number of others, hence my leaning to the Genetic definition of F1.
Take care
Dave
Inbreeding has been debated many times before, and at which time it becomes a problem also.
Eventually it will happen, so any action taken now will defer such a day.
I have been informed that to maintain a genetically viable population 50 breeding unrelated fish are required, in the case of L46 this will mean 50 independent colonies.
I think the effort is worth it, as do a number of others, hence my leaning to the Genetic definition of F1.
Take care
Dave
I have read a bit about inbreeding in fish, and as far as I've been able to figure out fish aren't as suceptible to damage from inbreeding as mammals are, but, as Dave says, it will be a problem eventually. (look at livebearers and some tetras for instance. used to be hardy fish, but are now very delicate...)
Several things can be done to avoid this, and I agree it's worth the effort to be aware of this problem as soon as possible. Swapping fry is one thing that can be done, to get fresh blood into the breeding program each and every one has, making sure you buy from different sources another. maybe we could set up a list of different approaches to avoid inbreeding on the site eventually.
It might be a good idea to do what they've done in Canada, and use G instead of, or in addition to, F. This way we'll know both the genetic heritage, and also the generation from wild.
Several things can be done to avoid this, and I agree it's worth the effort to be aware of this problem as soon as possible. Swapping fry is one thing that can be done, to get fresh blood into the breeding program each and every one has, making sure you buy from different sources another. maybe we could set up a list of different approaches to avoid inbreeding on the site eventually.
It might be a good idea to do what they've done in Canada, and use G instead of, or in addition to, F. This way we'll know both the genetic heritage, and also the generation from wild.
-
discusbabe
- Obsessed!!
- Posts: 229
- Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:39 am
- Location: Derbyshire, UK
I have two tanks just for zebras but with only four zebs they do look rather empty still! 
I live in hope! 
i'm not sure how much inbreeding a fish can take.
it's differs from species to species I believe.
I read somewhere once that fish that are from streams that often dry up to little ponds handle inbreeding much better.
Since the pond gets real small, they are often inbreeding till the stream comes back with the rainy season.
sometimes the next rainy season is not enough to transfer them to a place with new blood, and they have to wait longer.
Frontosa is the fish that i have the most experience with, and is usually my reference point for everything, as i'm fairly new with Zebra plecos.
With Frontosa, the original common type the burundi has been imported for 50 years, so we see a fair amount of abnormalities with them now.
Wild burundi are also now very rarely imported.
Tank raised ones, of unknown generation show up with mishapen noses, stunted size, very shy, bad stripes and coloration.
Most other frontosa types have only been imported for 10 years or less, and i have never seen any deformaties in these types, only the original varient, the burundi.
I have never seen frontosa types such as Mpimbwe, Moba etc with any deformaties.
With the frontosa taking 3 years to reach breeding age, most of the new types have not yet reached F3, while the burundi type being around for 50 years, and bred heavy for the past 25, they are past F6 level.
i'm sure there is no "true" F6 as many people do add wild or at least F1 blood back into the frontosa colony.
I have no scientific data that i have searched for, but i'm guessing that problems would not start to show up till about F4, though i'd do my best to not breed them that way, and to increase new blood into the groups.
Other fish, i'm sure can handle way past F4 i bet as most of the colorful guppy, discus and angels are past that.
it's differs from species to species I believe.
I read somewhere once that fish that are from streams that often dry up to little ponds handle inbreeding much better.
Since the pond gets real small, they are often inbreeding till the stream comes back with the rainy season.
sometimes the next rainy season is not enough to transfer them to a place with new blood, and they have to wait longer.
Frontosa is the fish that i have the most experience with, and is usually my reference point for everything, as i'm fairly new with Zebra plecos.
With Frontosa, the original common type the burundi has been imported for 50 years, so we see a fair amount of abnormalities with them now.
Wild burundi are also now very rarely imported.
Tank raised ones, of unknown generation show up with mishapen noses, stunted size, very shy, bad stripes and coloration.
Most other frontosa types have only been imported for 10 years or less, and i have never seen any deformaties in these types, only the original varient, the burundi.
I have never seen frontosa types such as Mpimbwe, Moba etc with any deformaties.
With the frontosa taking 3 years to reach breeding age, most of the new types have not yet reached F3, while the burundi type being around for 50 years, and bred heavy for the past 25, they are past F6 level.
i'm sure there is no "true" F6 as many people do add wild or at least F1 blood back into the frontosa colony.
I have no scientific data that i have searched for, but i'm guessing that problems would not start to show up till about F4, though i'd do my best to not breed them that way, and to increase new blood into the groups.
Other fish, i'm sure can handle way past F4 i bet as most of the colorful guppy, discus and angels are past that.
stunted growth and deformed noses is something we see in Zebras too. Look at this one, a two year old claimed to be an F1. It has both stunted growth and a snubnose poor thing:
but it can't be due to inbreeding if it is indeed an F1, which I don't doubt. (This doesn't mean that I don't think Zebras can suffer illeffects from inbreeding though!)
It's not my fish, I was offered to buy it about three to four years ago.
but it can't be due to inbreeding if it is indeed an F1, which I don't doubt. (This doesn't mean that I don't think Zebras can suffer illeffects from inbreeding though!)
It's not my fish, I was offered to buy it about three to four years ago.
-
kingfisher
- Site Admin
- Posts: 173
- Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 9:41 pm
- Location: Knapper, Norway
- Contact:
Article bait!
The issues surrounding Zebra deformities should really be an article!
I would like to read a concise article on
- snubnoses
- growth impairments
- other deformities
I think this would be of great help for everyone wanting to buy zebras
I would like to read a concise article on
- snubnoses
- growth impairments
- other deformities
I think this would be of great help for everyone wanting to buy zebras
[url=http://www.alpakka.org][i]Alpacas FTW![/i][/url]
