BULLDOG Fry- Genetic Or Environmental

Everything you ever wanted to say about "Zebra luvin", but didn't because you thought everyone would take the mickey! Plus general topics for discussion including everything from what you feed them to your personal experiences.

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McEve
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Post by McEve »

Darn, this is getting har to keep up with, having the discussion split in two threads I mean.


"EDIT - CARRIEDOVER FROM OTHER POST"

Ok, I'll copy this over here then, and see where it takes us.

What might be happening here, is that all Zebra's might be carrying a recessive gene for a bulldog face, but then get naturally culled in nature if the fish gets this deformity. Maybe because the connection between the nostrils and the connection to the olfactory rosette (thanks for explaining that to me Adam ) is disrupted, and they therefor don't sense danger as they should, and get to escape in time.

If we do then breed the bulldogs, this gene will be reinforced, and we will end up with more fry with bull dog face.

How's that for a theory
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makes sense to me Rob!
Tom2600
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Post by Tom2600 »

Rob wrote....If this shortening of the snout affects the oflactory response then the fish would be slightly less able to sence danger. i.e fight or flight! If this was the case, then then fry in the wild would not survive predation, hence no wild caught adults with the deformity. This variable does not however exist in captivity, therefore the young can survive a perfectly normal life.




I think this continued discussion and suggestions it looks like a very realistic reason as to why "bulldog" zebras are not found in the wild. Well done to Adam, McEve and Rob!!

This is what I would trying to suggest, although I couldn't think of a reason as to why the shape of the head would equal such a reduced chance of growing into an adult in the wild. All I do know is that natural selection is VERY strong, and only the fit survive in the wild. This is why we see the zebra in the shape it currently is, this is its optimum for performance.

I personally have no doubt now that the "bulldog" feature is genetic. Only time will tell as more are bred in captivity. Sadly, if the ban on wild imports continues what we have in captivity now is going to have to be carefully managed. But like McEve says, genetics govern that the Bulldog feature will occur, and probably more frequently due to no new injection of wild genes.

Regards

Tom
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Post by Ed_R »

Someone needs to breed some bulldogs, that will solve the question.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

This is a really difficult one. I think I need to do some more reading.

Without even touchin on the topic for a fear of hijacking th post and thus needing to spend 20 more minutes confusing myself as I move two posts into one and then to a new location..blah blah blah...(deep breath). We are now opening uop the dreaded reduced gene pool discussion.

Taking this into account, I am now starting to scare myself, as it would be impossible to stop this strain of Zebra, (if it is genetic) from entering the breeding cycle.

I should imagine that the individuals on this forum represent only a handfull of the people out there breeding zebras. Luckily everyone on this forum displays a great deal of passion, for their fishkeeping.

anyway... I'm waffling, this one has really ignited my passion for these little buggers.

Surely there must be a variable that can be "tested" to find out if it is genetic. If it is, well there is nothing we can do. If it is environmental however, then the liklehood of it entering the gene pool can be greatly reduced through education, and people such as ourselves.

Oooooh this is a hot one!! :lol: :lol:

EDIT[ hi ED_R I was scared to suggest that in case I got thrown out !!!] :lol: :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Rob on Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ed_R »

Like I said, the best way to test it is to breed some and see how many of their offspring do and don't have the problem. If it's truly genetic then it will atke a few generations to be certain, but it will become apparent.
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Rob
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Post by Rob »

Ed_R Your are a brave man!!!! :wink:

I must admit the thought crossed my minds, but I was to much of a wimp to say!!

Once again we are left with a mass of pro-s and cons!

It is basically the only true way to identify the reasoning.

However.........just to play the Devils Advocate, would it be possible for a first generation fish to have this due to environmental influence, but pass it on genetically!!!!!!!

:? :?:
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Post by Ed_R »

Am I brave or stupid?;)
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Post by Rob »

I guess we will find out soon as everyone see the posts!!!LOL :lol: :lol: But I guess we will both get it!
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Post by Ed_R »

The only way to answer the question of genetic vs environmental is to continbue to breed in differing environments and track the number of bullnoses per spawn. Then breed a pair of bullnoses for a while and track their progeny as well. And then still another generation after that.

I think it's important to point out that the ffspring of these bullnoses will more than likely be more 'normal' than 'bullnose' for quite a few generations, if the gene is recessive. It often takes years to bring stuff to dominance. I realize that the whole point is to prevent jusat this from happeningbut no one is at all certain that this bullnose thing really is genetic and the only way to know is to find some in the wild or to identify the specific stand of DNA that holds the gene- both of which are out of reach, I think- or to breed them and watch carefully. It would take a very responsible breeder to do this as the progeny should never be released to general public access. I can see letting them go to people who understand that breeding them isn't a good thing and have no interest in doing so, but you can't control the pet shops or who buys from them.
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Post by Tom2600 »

Definitely a hot potato! :wink:

You are quite right, to determine if this deformity is due to genetics the Bulldogs will have to be bred.

However, if the bulldog feature is caused by environmental damage post hatching then you should not see the same bulldog feature if you were to breed two bulldogs together. Unless of course the same environmental factors were in place that cuased the deformity in the first place. Its all getting a bit confusing now! :lol:
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Post by Ed_R »

WE have evidence from Barbie that suggests that better care in handling and environmental issues liekthe size of the cave may have something to do with it, too. We don't know, it's not yet obvious and there has been no testing or research. What I'm suggesting is that the research begin with the breeding of a couple adult bulldogs, assuming they don't die before reaching maturity, which is always a possibilty. I don't recall hearing of any bulldog nosed zebras that have bred or even reached a breeding age yet.

Barbie's results do suggest that better care and /or bigger caves reduce the problem, but others have had the same thing happen to them and we don't know what their environments or cave sizes or even transfer techniques were, if they were similar to Barbie's or not. The fact that it's happened at more than one breeder does strongly suggest genetics, though. But I still fell that the only way to find out for sure is to brfeed the bulldogs through a few generations and see what happens.
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Post by McEve »

Someone needs to breed some bulldogs, that will solve the question.
Like I said, the best way to test it is to breed some
Then breed a pair of bullnoses for a while
But I still fell that the only way to find out for sure is to brfeed the bulldogs
Wow, that was four times on only one page :lol: I'm sorry, it might not look like a nice thing to do, even cheating by quoting like that, but I couldn't help myself, please forgive me Ed_r :oops:

The problem here is two fold, at least....

1. Who's going to raise and breed the bulldogs? That will cost a lot of money and a considerable amount of dedication and not least, space to keep the bulldogs. Keeping records to keep track of which bulldog is from what litter so forth.

2. Curiosity killed the cat.

I admit point one might be more valid than point two though.

Does anybody speak German here at all? It sounds to me as though it would be a great idea to try and get the guys over at the German forum, that discovered this deformity long before us, involved and see what they have come up with?
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Post by Ed_R »

HRmph. ;)
Seriously, it's the only way, to my mind. I'd do it if I had the animals.
So sned me your bulldogs;)

The German forum is a great idea, I think. WE need to translate, or email them and ask if any of them speak English and can teach us what we want to know.
I do think that since the Germans have the same issue it's almost definitely genetic though.
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Post by wandj »

Oh my God what did I start here? An awesome discussion that introduced a very real deformity issue. Wish it hadn't been my fish though. Just thought I'd drop in again to say, that if by some miracle my "neat girl" and that ugly bulldog ever breed together in my community tank, I will take a pic of every single fry and show you all the result...good or bad. Maybe I should put those two together in a breeding tank and we can once and for all see what happens when bulldogs breed. Plus, we can see if they have different markings like my female. What an experiment!!! :lol:
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Post by wandj »

Oh my God what did I start here? An awesome discussion that introduced a very real deformity issue. Wish it hadn't been my fish though. Just thought I'd drop in again to say, that if by some miracle my "neat girl" and that ugly bulldog ever breed together in my community tank, I will take a pic of every single fry and show you all the result...good or bad. Maybe I should put those two together in a breeding tank and we can once and for all see what happens when bulldogs breed. Plus, we can see if they have different markings like my female. What an experiment!!! :lol:
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