L205 Not looking Too good....Need some Ideas!!

[Rob]

Hi Guys.

Here is the story so far.

At about 6pm on saturday, I noticed that my L205 was not looking too good. He had reddening of the anal vent, and very slight heamoraging at the base of his tail. This bothered me, but the more so the fact that he was barely moving, and his eyes were completely cloudy!!

It was the cloudy eye that scared me most, hence the re-homing in a hospital tank. I have upped the tempo slightly, and placed him in a light salt solution.

Hi eyes are no longer cloudy, yet he is still not eating, and the heamoraging is getting far worse. There is no major ulceration, or disurbance of the odontodes etc, but he is genreally not in the best of shape.

No other fish from the original tank have been affected what-so-ever! All water parameters are also normal.

Here are the pics, sorry for the quality, but I am reluctant to disturb him too much.







He is alittle more lively than previously, and I am unsure whether to increase the salt solution.

Tank is approximately 30l and i have approx 4 tspns of tonic salts. the temp is sitting at 86.

cheers guys..

[Barbie]

You have no idea what's causing the hemorrhaging? Was he low man on the dominance totem pole or anything? If he was mine, I'd treat him with kanacyn, or another broad spectrum antibiotic and daily water changes. I don't usually use antibiotics anymore, but that's definitely a sign of some pretty extensive internal damage of some sort, and could be a prime sight for a secondary infection. I hope he makes it through all this for you

Barbie

[Rob]

There was nothing in the tank that would bother him. He lives in the four foot community tank and up unitl now has had no problems. The major heamoraging has taken a few days to appear, it was only the odd spot initially. I was more concerned about the sunken and eyes, (from which I have never seen a fish recover)that I was concerned.


The eyes are still a little sunken, but not to a huge extent, and cloudiness has all but dissapeared.

Unfortunately I can't get any anitbiotics. I lost an L091 that had been in that particular tank about ayear ago. It cost me £50 for a fish vet to pay a home visit ,unfortunately despite the efforts the wee bugger didn't make it.

I'm hoping this one doesn't go the same way. I'll try a little Myxazin, as a broad specturm. All I can think of is that it is some form of scepticemia.

[Tom2600]

Hi Rob,

That looks nasty for your plec. I'm sure from the fact you have loads of L046s that you maintain very high standards in your tanks. If I didn't know this I would guess from the location of the blood that it could possibly be due to poor tank conditions in the substrate.

However, I am at a loss. Sadly the only other, probable, option is that your plec has a systemic infection which is probably going to be fatal. BUT...it may not be. A vet would probably not be able to help, so your course of treatment so far is probably the best you can do, only other benefit would be loads of quality water changes. Cause could be anything, it could be that your plec has unseen internal problems and is just unlucky. Hopefully it will be this, and maybe it will even pull through. Fingers crossed.

Good luck with it.

Tom

[Des]

Hi Rob,
In my days of keeping discus, I would have used Chloromycetin at 250mg per 20 to 25 litres of water daily for 3 to 4 days.( as described in Eberhard Shultze's book Discus Fish). You could see if your vet/chemist could get these for you.
In the mean time I would use Esha 2000 which has proven to be an excellent all round cure.
You could also contact www.Discus-south.co.uk for the excellent range of asian fish medicines that they carry. They will post them to you. Adam used this range when he had his problem with NTD.
By the way has this tank had its share of water changes?.
It could be a bacterial infection, due to "old" water and inefficient filtration.
This also causes a similar illness in Discus.
Regards,
Des

[Rob]

Cheers Tom

I ahve only ever put two plecs in my community tank, the first L091, died due to an internal bacterial infection which it had from the wild, the second is this L205. I thin kthis will be the last, if it doesn't work out.

Des

The water quality is good, which is what confuses me. My first impression would be an internal bacterial infection, but I don't understand how? The filtration o the tank is excessive, i.e a Ehiem pro breather, and a Fluval internal 404 plus. Overall around 2300 l/h in a 48x18x18, with no dead spots.

The confusing thing is that the fish itself seems to be improving (touch wood) The eyes are less sunken, and the opacity has dissapeared. He is also a great deal more active. When I first took him out of th tank I though he was vitually dead, with very little movement, now he will quite happliy move when I go near the tank.

Thanks for the links, I will contact them tomorrow, and see what they say.

Cheers everyone
rob

[Tom2600]

Good to hear the Plec has perked up due to your efforts. I hope this continues, and there is no reason why is shouldn't if you have caught it early enough.

I assume your community tank has a substrate, if so what is it?

I ask because I have some corys in my community tank. About a month ago I noticed one had a small infection on its mouth which had eaten some of the tissue away. I immediately made an extra big water change, involving a big clean of the undergravel filter. This tank is mature and has massive filteration but the cory had still suffered an infection because my gravel cleaning wasn't quite up to scratch. Since this I have stepped up the gravel cleaning and I have had no further problems. This is probably not the cause of your plecs problems but it outlined to me that despite my community tank having loads of mature filteration and thriving fish, breeding left, right and centre, the ground loving fish still suffered due to all the crrap produced.

All the best

Tom

[Rob]

Hi Tom

I use sand substrate, so it could be possible that the L205 found a stale spot. He sat in the the one place most of the time, I'll check it out.

I think it seems to be the only explanation, hopefully I have caught it in time.

Thanks again

Rob

[Tristan]

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear about your pleco. The best ' non vet' treatments that i have found are the Huey Hung treatments. Adam had an outbreak of neon tetra disease and was able to stem it twith some of the treatments. I have used them myself with discus and malawis. I had a female Labidochromis caeruleus who haemorrhaged in a similar way to your little chap and some "general killer" sorted her out in a few days. It is about £7 -£10 per small tub but excellent stuff and it works quickly.(much better than Protozin & Myxazin).
I buy mine from a local discus breeder but i have seen it for sale at an online aquatic outlet somewhere, i will have a look and let you know.

Tristan

[Adam]

Hi Rob,

Sorry to hear about your poorly plec.

I would definately recommend the Huey Hung range of products. They worked wonders for me when I had the outbreak of NTD in my community tank, I had tried protozin and myxazin, not at the same time, but with no effect. Des and Tristan then recommend the Huey Hung products and the NTD was stopped in it's tracks. I used a combination of the "general killer" and the "super killer". I do not intend on using any other medications since my experience with the Huey Hung products. I have a little stock, thanks to Tristan, just in case it's needed.

[Tristan]

Hi Rob,

I have done some searching about and the best price i can find the Huey Hung treatments for is http://www.atlantisaquatics.co.uk/acata ... tions.html

I hope this helps. Not many places stock it but it is worth giving you local shops a call. As an effective treatment I hold it in almost gollike reverence

Good luck.

[Rob]

Hi Guys

Tristan, cheers for the link, I am about to order some right now.

Des, when you say you used a combination of the two, how did you do this? How did you administer the two medicines.

[Edit] Scratch that last question as I have just checkout the link and read the instructions.

Cheers

rob

[Tristan]

BTW Rob,
you should see some improvement in the condition of the fish within the first 24-48 hours, it is amazing how quickly it seems to work.

Adam, How long was it before you noticed any improvement in NTD

Tristan

[Adam]

Tristan,

I know it sounds hard to believe but there was an immediate improvement within a 12Hr period. I was losing between 15 to 20 cardinals a day. After dosing the tank with the HH medication I didn't find any dead cardinals the following morning. I did lose a few more of them as I suspect that they were too far gone. As I said before I used the general killer and super killer in combination as prescribed by the manufacturer.

[Rob]

Hi everyone

Just got an e-mail saying the medication has been dispatched, so with any luck it should be here tomorrow. here's hoping he makes it through the night!!!