How is that?fry mysteriously dying...
Hi PM,
I'm very sorry to hear that you have also been affected by this problem. I have been plagued by this problem for a while now and I have lost many fry to this mysterious "disease". In fact there are at least two other members that have suffered from this problem, INXS and Tom Kvites. Here are their threads about the subject.
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1448
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1089
This is what I have established so far. IMO it is not related to food as it has continued to affect me regardless of what I have fed the fry. I have also ruled out territorial disputes. The older fry in my tank are not affected by the problem, they have comandered a cave that the adult males do not occupy and made it into a youth club. As many as 15 fry can be found in there at times. It is highly unlikely to be water related if you are using RO water as I believe you do, that's providing that all measurable water parametrs check out. It is not substrate related as I have the problem and my tank is BB. There is a theory knocking around out there that harmful pathogens build up quicker on a BB tank than one that has substrate. Pretty much disproved really as you have substrate and I don't but yet we appear to have the same problem. UV sterilisation does not work as I installed a "portable" 8 watt unit about a couple of months ago and initially things seemed to improve but I just lost an entire spawn of eight fry that made it to about three weeks old. I have just had another spawn but I expect to lose these as well unless I can isolate the problem. I have a suspicion that a more powerful unit may work but I have my reservations about doing this due to the possible effects this could have on the immune system of the fish in the tank.
Before you start throwing money at this problem I will save you the trouble and let you know of what I have tried so far.
Installed 8 watt UV unit.
Replaced all RO cartridges and added new DI cartridge.
Replaced all filter media.
Increased partial water changes to twice a day.
Removed fry to breeding trap in the tank.
Replaced all test kits and conductivity meter.
Removed and sterilised all decor.
Scrubed tank bottom and sides coupled with large water change.
Increased filteration on the tank.
Increased aeration, provided by HI Blo air pump.
Tried numerous new feeds.
I may have tried a few more things that I can't remember for the time being. I have a theory that this problem is bacterial in origin caused by high levels of disolved organics. I believe that this is brought about by overfeeding which invariably occurs when there are fry in the tank. As a result of the high dissolved organic level harmful bacteria are able to multiply, will be investing in an ORP meter soon. The UV unit is unable to deal with this bacteria as I believe that they can be found in both the water coloum and within the biofilm that can be found on the surfaces of a matured tank.
I came to this conclusion recently following my brothers recent success with breeding Caridina Japonica(Ammano shrimps) He cultures Chlorella Nannochloropsis and Tetraseimis phytoplankton to feed his Ammano zoes. He has noticed that using matured heavily organic laden water from his planted tank produces the best cultures and in a relatively short period. This got me thinking if this works for phytoplankton it could also cause elevated levels of undesirable bacteria/pathogens. Older fry and adults are not affected as they presumably have well developed immune systems.
In a last ditched attempt I plan on a two pronged attack, I will be purchasing some poly filter to help reduce the organic levels in the tank. I am also looking at other products such as Seachem's Purigen and Hypersorb that also reduce the dissolved organic load in aquaria. However before that I feel that I have no choice but to resort to using a broad spectrum bacteriacide, I am still undecided on which one to use as yet. Esha 2000 is increasingly looking to be the one as I have used this with the zebras before and they suffered no adverse effects.
On a final note I believe regardless of how sparingly you feed zebras a good part of their food ends up as nutrient rich organic waste in the water. Food is left lying around for a while as they are not voracious feeders.
Please bear in mind that these are just my observations and my own personal theory. If I had a lab at my disposal I could possibly prove my theory.
Good luck PM, I know too well what it feels like to lose zebra fry.
Adam.
I'm very sorry to hear that you have also been affected by this problem. I have been plagued by this problem for a while now and I have lost many fry to this mysterious "disease". In fact there are at least two other members that have suffered from this problem, INXS and Tom Kvites. Here are their threads about the subject.
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1448
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1089
This is what I have established so far. IMO it is not related to food as it has continued to affect me regardless of what I have fed the fry. I have also ruled out territorial disputes. The older fry in my tank are not affected by the problem, they have comandered a cave that the adult males do not occupy and made it into a youth club. As many as 15 fry can be found in there at times. It is highly unlikely to be water related if you are using RO water as I believe you do, that's providing that all measurable water parametrs check out. It is not substrate related as I have the problem and my tank is BB. There is a theory knocking around out there that harmful pathogens build up quicker on a BB tank than one that has substrate. Pretty much disproved really as you have substrate and I don't but yet we appear to have the same problem. UV sterilisation does not work as I installed a "portable" 8 watt unit about a couple of months ago and initially things seemed to improve but I just lost an entire spawn of eight fry that made it to about three weeks old. I have just had another spawn but I expect to lose these as well unless I can isolate the problem. I have a suspicion that a more powerful unit may work but I have my reservations about doing this due to the possible effects this could have on the immune system of the fish in the tank.
Before you start throwing money at this problem I will save you the trouble and let you know of what I have tried so far.
Installed 8 watt UV unit.
Replaced all RO cartridges and added new DI cartridge.
Replaced all filter media.
Increased partial water changes to twice a day.
Removed fry to breeding trap in the tank.
Replaced all test kits and conductivity meter.
Removed and sterilised all decor.
Scrubed tank bottom and sides coupled with large water change.
Increased filteration on the tank.
Increased aeration, provided by HI Blo air pump.
Tried numerous new feeds.
I may have tried a few more things that I can't remember for the time being. I have a theory that this problem is bacterial in origin caused by high levels of disolved organics. I believe that this is brought about by overfeeding which invariably occurs when there are fry in the tank. As a result of the high dissolved organic level harmful bacteria are able to multiply, will be investing in an ORP meter soon. The UV unit is unable to deal with this bacteria as I believe that they can be found in both the water coloum and within the biofilm that can be found on the surfaces of a matured tank.
I came to this conclusion recently following my brothers recent success with breeding Caridina Japonica(Ammano shrimps) He cultures Chlorella Nannochloropsis and Tetraseimis phytoplankton to feed his Ammano zoes. He has noticed that using matured heavily organic laden water from his planted tank produces the best cultures and in a relatively short period. This got me thinking if this works for phytoplankton it could also cause elevated levels of undesirable bacteria/pathogens. Older fry and adults are not affected as they presumably have well developed immune systems.
In a last ditched attempt I plan on a two pronged attack, I will be purchasing some poly filter to help reduce the organic levels in the tank. I am also looking at other products such as Seachem's Purigen and Hypersorb that also reduce the dissolved organic load in aquaria. However before that I feel that I have no choice but to resort to using a broad spectrum bacteriacide, I am still undecided on which one to use as yet. Esha 2000 is increasingly looking to be the one as I have used this with the zebras before and they suffered no adverse effects.
On a final note I believe regardless of how sparingly you feed zebras a good part of their food ends up as nutrient rich organic waste in the water. Food is left lying around for a while as they are not voracious feeders.
Please bear in mind that these are just my observations and my own personal theory. If I had a lab at my disposal I could possibly prove my theory.
Good luck PM, I know too well what it feels like to lose zebra fry.
Adam.
I'm curious.. Why do you guys use RO for raising the fry? Putting water thru an RO and DI unit, as y'all know, strips it of just about everything. When you reconstitute the water with additives you're putting back, at best, a subset of the stuff found in naturally occuring water.
For raising fry, my opinion (based on discus fry, not Zebra fry before anyone jumps to point out my lack of experience) is that regular water is the way to go and helps fry develop quicker and stronger. If all else fails, might it be worth setting up a small tank with a couple fry, weaning them off the RO water and seeing how they do..?
For raising fry, my opinion (based on discus fry, not Zebra fry before anyone jumps to point out my lack of experience) is that regular water is the way to go and helps fry develop quicker and stronger. If all else fails, might it be worth setting up a small tank with a couple fry, weaning them off the RO water and seeing how they do..?
It's not an illusion, it just looks like one.
eSHa2000 took care of Tom Kvitnes mass death problem, so it CAN be a bacterial problem.Adam wrote: Esha 2000 is increasingly looking to be the one as I have used this with the zebras before and they suffered no adverse effects.
Last edited by McEve on Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AndyAps.com
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Hi Plastic mac
I may be way of traget here but i am going to come at your problem from a very different angle, at least if im worng it can be discounted.
I picked up earlier that you use 100% RO water and make it upto 300ppm with RO right.
I too have been using RO water recently to try and trigger a spawn but before i used it on the zebra's, as its my first time using RO water and RO right i did an experiment in another tank to see what the PH and GH and KH would drop too.
Basically i found out that RO Right does not add KH to the water (or very little), only GH. I know you understand the relevance of KH and how it effects PH etc so im not gonna try and patronise you but........like i said it was my first time and i didnt.
Because of the lack of KH in the tank i kept experiencing massive PH fluctuations, usually a few hours after i had fed (as the organic waste built up=acidic). this kept plunging the PH and stressing the fish.
Like i said, its a completly different look on your problem and one im 90% sure you are already aware of and therfore dont have any problems with but i thought it worth mentioning.
Good luck
Andy
I may be way of traget here but i am going to come at your problem from a very different angle, at least if im worng it can be discounted.
I picked up earlier that you use 100% RO water and make it upto 300ppm with RO right.
I too have been using RO water recently to try and trigger a spawn but before i used it on the zebra's, as its my first time using RO water and RO right i did an experiment in another tank to see what the PH and GH and KH would drop too.
Basically i found out that RO Right does not add KH to the water (or very little), only GH. I know you understand the relevance of KH and how it effects PH etc so im not gonna try and patronise you but........like i said it was my first time and i didnt.
Because of the lack of KH in the tank i kept experiencing massive PH fluctuations, usually a few hours after i had fed (as the organic waste built up=acidic). this kept plunging the PH and stressing the fish.
Like i said, its a completly different look on your problem and one im 90% sure you are already aware of and therfore dont have any problems with but i thought it worth mentioning.
Good luck
Andy
success is a journey full of unbelievable experiance NOT a destination with an unbelievable experiance.
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Plastic Mac
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Hi Andy,
Yes your absolutely right, it can potentially cause large ph fluctuations (and possible crashing) assuming you do not use a ph buffer with it, as recommended on the back of the tub ( where they recommend kent ph stable). I sometimes add a little carbonate of soda to combat this and raise it to a level where fluctations don't happen. I also change the tank water at around 30-40% every 3 days, 4 at the most which again helps prevent any major ph swing.
As a result, (touch wood lol)...I have a pretty stable envioment, even more so now that I'm hooking up another tank to the system thereby doubling the volume of water.
@Pete.
I use r/o as the water out of the tap here is pretty unsuitable, a ph of 8.4 and a tds of between 500-700. I'm sure it's possible to breed zebs in this water...however, I think it's easier to use r/o and I think assuming your using well set-up r/o the fish probbaly prefer it too. I don't even like drinking the tap water here, so I certianly wouldn't want to live in it lol.
@ Adam,
Many thanks for that reply, it sounds like you've been putting a lot of effort into finding a solution to the problem. After having got through this now (I hope lol) I totally agree with your assumption....and I would imagine it's almost definitly something to do with biofilm. Since I've cleaned the tank decor, properly scrubbed that is....the deaths have stopped. The several water changes I performed while the deaths were occuring seemingly had no effect so my experience would certainly tie in with yours imo. I'd be very interested to know how your two pronged attack goes though.
Incidentally, I already use purigen on my main pleco tank, as it's full of bogwood and occassionally I like to take pictures...so the clearer the water the better. Ime, purigen is fantastic and kicks the **** out of carbon in every aspect. The only issue I have with purigen is regenerating it. I find it takes far longer than the instructions state... although I think the process could be speeded up using an airstone. I'd be interested to know how you get on with the purigen as well. I may well try purigen on my zeb tank too.
Many thanks for your reply. Btw, it would seem there is one piece of good news out of all of this. 9 fry lost in total, but with all the water changes etc that I performed last week,..I noticed an approx. 2 day old fry lying outside a males cave this evening as I was cleaning the tank...so it would appear another spawn has taken place. I feel a little happier now lol.
cheers
Plastic Mac
Yes your absolutely right, it can potentially cause large ph fluctuations (and possible crashing) assuming you do not use a ph buffer with it, as recommended on the back of the tub ( where they recommend kent ph stable). I sometimes add a little carbonate of soda to combat this and raise it to a level where fluctations don't happen. I also change the tank water at around 30-40% every 3 days, 4 at the most which again helps prevent any major ph swing.
As a result, (touch wood lol)...I have a pretty stable envioment, even more so now that I'm hooking up another tank to the system thereby doubling the volume of water.
@Pete.
I use r/o as the water out of the tap here is pretty unsuitable, a ph of 8.4 and a tds of between 500-700. I'm sure it's possible to breed zebs in this water...however, I think it's easier to use r/o and I think assuming your using well set-up r/o the fish probbaly prefer it too. I don't even like drinking the tap water here, so I certianly wouldn't want to live in it lol.
@ Adam,
Many thanks for that reply, it sounds like you've been putting a lot of effort into finding a solution to the problem. After having got through this now (I hope lol) I totally agree with your assumption....and I would imagine it's almost definitly something to do with biofilm. Since I've cleaned the tank decor, properly scrubbed that is....the deaths have stopped. The several water changes I performed while the deaths were occuring seemingly had no effect so my experience would certainly tie in with yours imo. I'd be very interested to know how your two pronged attack goes though.
Incidentally, I already use purigen on my main pleco tank, as it's full of bogwood and occassionally I like to take pictures...so the clearer the water the better. Ime, purigen is fantastic and kicks the **** out of carbon in every aspect. The only issue I have with purigen is regenerating it. I find it takes far longer than the instructions state... although I think the process could be speeded up using an airstone. I'd be interested to know how you get on with the purigen as well. I may well try purigen on my zeb tank too.
Many thanks for your reply. Btw, it would seem there is one piece of good news out of all of this. 9 fry lost in total, but with all the water changes etc that I performed last week,..I noticed an approx. 2 day old fry lying outside a males cave this evening as I was cleaning the tank...so it would appear another spawn has taken place. I feel a little happier now lol.
cheers
Plastic Mac
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AndyAps.com
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Hi Plastic
Yeah i am aware of using the ph stabaliser on the back of the tub. i have been using bicarb of soda which keeps the ph stable in the zebra tank and im pretty sure i too have a spawn but i'll wait and see if i get deffinate wrigglers. as i asumed you were well aware of the ph swings but atleast it ruled it out.
I think its probably to do with the biofilm also as this seems to be the only last option.
Good luck with the new tank
Andy
Yeah i am aware of using the ph stabaliser on the back of the tub. i have been using bicarb of soda which keeps the ph stable in the zebra tank and im pretty sure i too have a spawn but i'll wait and see if i get deffinate wrigglers. as i asumed you were well aware of the ph swings but atleast it ruled it out.
I think its probably to do with the biofilm also as this seems to be the only last option.
Good luck with the new tank
Andy
success is a journey full of unbelievable experiance NOT a destination with an unbelievable experiance.
An observation on the pH and KH situation...
adding sodium bicarb to increase KH works but is an incomplete remedy. KH is comprised of more than just sodium bicarb. Calcium and magnesium are important and often overlooked components of KH.
I mention this because calcium and magnesium might also be needed by the fry at certain stages of development... maybe there is a deficiency there that impacts the survival rate.
If someone wanted to test this idea, there are plenty of calcium/magnesium buffers on the market for the marine hobby. You could probably add them at 1/10 or less dosage as this theory is based on the idea that only trace amounts of Ca or Mg are needed.
Just my 0.02.
adding sodium bicarb to increase KH works but is an incomplete remedy. KH is comprised of more than just sodium bicarb. Calcium and magnesium are important and often overlooked components of KH.
I mention this because calcium and magnesium might also be needed by the fry at certain stages of development... maybe there is a deficiency there that impacts the survival rate.
If someone wanted to test this idea, there are plenty of calcium/magnesium buffers on the market for the marine hobby. You could probably add them at 1/10 or less dosage as this theory is based on the idea that only trace amounts of Ca or Mg are needed.
Just my 0.02.
Our problem is not that the world lacks magic. Our problem is that we don't believe in its magic.
~Marianne Williamson
~Marianne Williamson
I agree with Andy. Regular water contains much more than just Ca, Mg, and a buffer. There are minor trace elements that we rarely care about, but are somewhat crucial to living organisms. I know you might think they get most of them from their food, but that is not true. Some ions they intake are directly from the water and pass through the gills, I believe Fe2+ maybe one of them.Andyt. wrote:An observation on the pH and KH situation...
adding sodium bicarb to increase KH works but is an incomplete remedy. KH is comprised of more than just sodium bicarb. Calcium and magnesium are important and often overlooked components of KH.
I mention this because calcium and magnesium might also be needed by the fry at certain stages of development... maybe there is a deficiency there that impacts the survival rate.
If someone wanted to test this idea, there are plenty of calcium/magnesium buffers on the market for the marine hobby. You could probably add them at 1/10 or less dosage as this theory is based on the idea that only trace amounts of Ca or Mg are needed.
Just my 0.02.
Although the biofilm theory might have some truth to it, why haven't many other breeders with BB tanks expierenced this same situation?
Going by the fact that you both use 100% RO and only supplement Ca, Mg, and a little amount of buffer - you're probably missing other elements such as Mn+, Fe2+, Fe3+, Rb, K, P etc.
Maybe try using 25% tap and 75% RO; see if things get any better.
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Plastic Mac
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Kent R/O already contains both those elements and more.Andyt. wrote:An observation on the pH and KH situation...
adding sodium bicarb to increase KH works but is an incomplete remedy. KH is comprised of more than just sodium bicarb. Calcium and magnesium are important and often overlooked components of KH.
I mention this because calcium and magnesium might also be needed by the fry at certain stages of development... maybe there is a deficiency there that impacts the survival rate.
If someone wanted to test this idea, there are plenty of calcium/magnesium buffers on the market for the marine hobby. You could probably add them at 1/10 or less dosage as this theory is based on the idea that only trace amounts of Ca or Mg are needed.
Just my 0.02.
It contains, as stated on the back of the tub:
Major salts of Sodium
Magnesium
Calcium
Pottasium
+ all necessary minor and trace elements.
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AndyAps.com
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hello again
I'm Not sure in using 100% RO in your tanks. I have used RO to breed dicus but have ALWAYS used some tap water to put in some elements as well as ROright. Even if i only used as little as 10% and then made up the GH with ROright. Ro right is a great product and adds alot of minerals to the water for GH but not the same minerals that are in tap water. ie NO iron, copper, magnesium, manganese, aluminium, barium barilium,cadmium etc etc etc.
obviously the above elements would be lethal to fish in high doses, BUT they are present in your local tap water ion minute amounts (tap water even contains arsenic in trace amounts on occasion!!!)
In the wild these elements and compounds would leach into the water from the soil and rock and air when it rains so they are naturally present.
It may be possible that the young fish need to draw on these elements and ions through there gills at some stage in their development...................then again they might not.......we dont know for sure. BUT we do know they are present in nature so why not have them in your tank? Man is very good at making substitutes and concoctions and new fangled products to make things easier (and make money fromm them)..............but we dont always get it right!
Remember i am talking about barely traceable amounts so dont go adding buckets full of chemicals to your tanks lol 
P.s if you ring your local water supplier they have to (by law) provide you with a chemical analysis of the water if requested. just ask them for it and its illegal for them not to send you a full chemical report for your tap water. you can actually find many of the reports on the internet.
I'm Not sure in using 100% RO in your tanks. I have used RO to breed dicus but have ALWAYS used some tap water to put in some elements as well as ROright. Even if i only used as little as 10% and then made up the GH with ROright. Ro right is a great product and adds alot of minerals to the water for GH but not the same minerals that are in tap water. ie NO iron, copper, magnesium, manganese, aluminium, barium barilium,cadmium etc etc etc.
obviously the above elements would be lethal to fish in high doses, BUT they are present in your local tap water ion minute amounts (tap water even contains arsenic in trace amounts on occasion!!!)
In the wild these elements and compounds would leach into the water from the soil and rock and air when it rains so they are naturally present.
It may be possible that the young fish need to draw on these elements and ions through there gills at some stage in their development...................then again they might not.......we dont know for sure. BUT we do know they are present in nature so why not have them in your tank? Man is very good at making substitutes and concoctions and new fangled products to make things easier (and make money fromm them)..............but we dont always get it right!
Remember i am talking about barely traceable amounts so dont go adding buckets full of chemicals to your tanks lol
P.s if you ring your local water supplier they have to (by law) provide you with a chemical analysis of the water if requested. just ask them for it and its illegal for them not to send you a full chemical report for your tap water. you can actually find many of the reports on the internet.
success is a journey full of unbelievable experiance NOT a destination with an unbelievable experiance.
