How we judge the reputation....

The lights are dimmed, the fire is blazing in the big old fireplace, your favourite tunes are on in the background, and I'm just about to pour you a big glass of red!!! Let's settle down on the big old leather sofa and have a chat!!
october004
Groupie
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: Greenville, Ohio

Post by october004 »

like I said I didn't mean to start a hornest nest but I was just relaying the thoughts of a few of the people that I talk to and I was curious to the answer....
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

Don't worry, you didn't kick the hornets nest and maybe getting some of this aired out will settle things down. We have a few members with very differing views that obviously have no intention of "getting along". That doesn't mean you need to take it to heart because you posted a question that then got tied to a runaway horse ;).

Quite a few of us miss the days where people on the site genuinely wanted to help each other and not spend so much time looking over the neighbors fence to judge him. It would be great to see people going back to the attitude in that thread, IMO.

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
a1fox
Forum Follower
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:18 am
Location: calgary alberta
Contact:

Re: Hi

Post by a1fox »

dave wrote:Well Madmorrocan answering your question.

Different people have different approaches to this fish in particular, and the extremes are totally commercial or just for love, and there are many points inbetween.

The ideal being getting this fish back to pre-ban prices and also supplying good quality fish.

To do this, you are dealing with the different approaches mentioned above, it could be cash, cash + fish, so to acquire the WC sitting in peoples tanks a flexible approach is required. I have no doubt that acquiring these fish will benefit the captive breeding population.

Individual circumstances also dictate what individuals can do. The whole is greater than any individual no matter who it is.

Anybody who keeps this fish should try and breed it and their contribution is as valuable as anybody elses.

If breeding related fish, then every effort should be made to exchange to introduce new blood or if people are lucky enough to be in posession of WC keep a record of which young are related.

As to cash value, I'll pay what I need to. As to my selling price, no doubt I will get complaints if it is unreasonable. I will say though that cash is not the determining factor, it is more who it is.

I also would much rather exchange, hopefully this will happen more frequently once people start taking my fish and a degree of trust is built up.

Dave
Ok, i dont like getting in the middle of bickering, cause I'm one of those
people you might not want to hear from. While i do have some zebs, I
am not at this time willing to release the details as of yet, but you can
bet I'll be registering as a breeder rather soon. I have posted here and
there, without having more than a couple, if any. Just because someone
doesnt have them, doesnt mean they have no good information to
offer. As for reputation, well, i wouldnt base that as much on posts
as individual dealings with that person. Reputation is earned, good
or bad. It reflects both attitudes and opinions, and also dealings
with customers. A helpful person with lots of knowledge to offer,
is welcome, whether they have the fish or not. Perhaps they have
had them, or researched them extensively. Either way they should
be heard rather than scuffawed at. The other side of the coin is,
that there are breeders who are not terrribly willing to give out
their secrets to success. It seems to me this does more harm to
the fish than anything, unless you are placeing you pocketbook
first and just dont want to help others be successful.
C'mon people- everyone, whether they own or not, should
be able to contribute , preferably in a positive way. I'm not
following all the posts on this, its just way too hostile and
pettty......fish- we are here to learn about the fish and how
to breed them- leave the politics or personal issues in
another forum! PEACE :D
dave
Obsessed!!
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: liverpool

Hi again

Post by dave »

First of all I do not mean to cause disruption.

Take the proposal of zoos, your response was they do not release them to the hobby, Robs was to offer a couple of stripey things.

And no criticism is meant here, I do do believe people are stating what they believe to be true. Different things apply in different countries.

Also my approach is somewhat pushy, but by getting some members interested in an exchange, and yes trust has to be built up before this happens.

In addition, members of this forum will be obtaining fish, who previously have not been able to obtain them. At least we know members of this forum are likely to care.

In addition LFS's would pay me far more than I am charging for the fish.

I believe what I am doing is beneficial to the long term welfare of the fish and the hobbyist. It would be more cost effective for me to sell at inflated prices and purchase even more fish as and when people want to cash them in.

If the concensus of opinion believes that my intentions are misplaced, please let me know.

Dave
AndyAps.com
Obsessed!!
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:57 am
Location: Sheffield UK

Post by AndyAps.com »

DAVE Wrote:
I agree, and as pretty as the fish is, people should get some experience with other fish first.

Unfortunately climbimg up aquarank seems to be this sites priority at the moment ( Judging by the number of posts ). I'm not sure how this benefits the fish, perhaps somebody could explain, there is already an interest in this fish, no need to generate more.
First of all Dave i take offence at this. i started the recent Vote thread and to be honest your the reason i did! Since your first post on this site you have done nothing but disagree with 90% of poeple on here, cause ill feeling and bad vibes and massage your own ego.
Yes you are trying to do alot for Zebra conservastion which i commend and agree with.
However i do not agree with looking down your nose at the people who for one reason or another, are not, can not, or are and don't wish to brag about it.
you don't seem to think gaining new members is important to gain new knowledge is this because you know everything already? you dont feel boosting the moral of members by creating a short term single goal for all to focus on is important? (not to take focus away from the fish but as a little fun and moral booster). which is a good thing, because they will read your post and see how darn fantastic you are!!

I dont post very often but read a heck of alot of posts and have an 18 strong colony of WC zebra's so this isnt a post from an angry/jealous non keeper.

Maybe you should review you manner a little as i feel this is why your exchange programmes etc arent taking off, not because people think they are a bad idea ( on the contrary, the idea came about long ago and people were enthusiastic) but because people dont really like the idea of dealing with an arrogant egotistical biggot.

sorry but i feel its prob what everyone is thinking but doesnt want to say incase of repercussion.
success is a journey full of unbelievable experiance NOT a destination with an unbelievable experiance.
a1fox
Forum Follower
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:18 am
Location: calgary alberta
Contact:

Post by a1fox »

AndyAps.com wrote:DAVE Wrote:
I agree, and as pretty as the fish is, people should get some experience with other fish first.

Unfortunately climbimg up aquarank seems to be this sites priority at the moment ( Judging by the number of posts ). I'm not sure how this benefits the fish, perhaps somebody could explain, there is already an interest in this fish, no need to generate more.
First of all Dave i take offence at this. i started the recent Vote thread and to be honest your the reason i did! Since your first post on this site you have done nothing but disagree with 90% of poeple on here, cause ill feeling and bad vibes and massage your own ego.
Yes you are trying to do alot for Zebra conservastion which i commend and agree with.
However i do not agree with looking down your nose at the people who for one reason or another, are not, can not, or are and don't wish to brag about it.
you don't seem to think gaining new members is important to gain new knowledge is this because you know everything already? you dont feel boosting the moral of members by creating a short term single goal for all to focus on is important? (not to take focus away from the fish but as a little fun and moral booster). which is a good thing, because they will read your post and see how darn fantastic you are!!

I dont post very often but read a heck of alot of posts and have an 18 strong colony of WC zebra's so this isnt a post from an angry/jealous non keeper.

Maybe you should review you manner a little as i feel this is why your exchange programmes etc arent taking off, not because people think they are a bad idea ( on the contrary, the idea came about long ago and people were enthusiastic) but because people dont really like the idea of dealing with an arrogant egotistical biggot.

sorry but i feel its prob what everyone is thinking but doesnt want to say incase of repercussion.
As a fairly new person to this site. I can tell you what goes on here
is exactly the same as what goes on with other similar interest groups.
I for one commend Dave for his honestly and willingness to be
forthright. Its a very rare manner of doing things, but quite frankly,
he acts as he talks. Hes very passionate about what he does, and
has no trouble passing along useful information for people who
need it. The fact of the matter is, he calls it as he sees it, he doesnt
beat around the bush, and I know these traits seem to give people
the wrong impression. I find his attitude and honesty quite
refreshing and i admire his goals and commitment to the overal
successs of the species. For once, look at the actions rather than
the words- while the politics may rub you the wrong way, you
cant deny his intent is nothing but good. People perhaps should
look beyond the comments? When you've been putting so much
into such a project, frustrations are everywhere. The disagreeing
with others, etc, is not meant to be personal, critisism can be
taken 2 ways, either good or bad, constructive or destructive.
it depends on whos reading it, and their perceptions of it. I for
one percieve Dave to be quite accurate in his renderings, and
does a reasonable job voicing this, however, much of the
problem lies peoples' perception of him, so the postings
will automatically mean something different than perhaps
he'd intended? I'm trying to be neutral here and analyse whats
being said without any preconceived notions of past reputation
for anything. I for one agree with alot of the things David say
and what he is trying to do. What i do see is that not everyone
likes how that info is delivered. Shoot the messenger if you
like, but the facts are good, and i commend him for being
willing to stick his neck out a little to get this information
out. :)
pleco nut 4 life!
www.deemarkbettacanada.com
User avatar
madmoroccan
Obsessed!!
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:21 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post by madmoroccan »

@ Andyaps.com;

You are spot on.

Some... :roll: have commented but have been censored for doing so (deleted posts). :roll:

It doesn't surprise me that after I asked for a truce no one bothered to acknowledge it. Instead the arrogance continues.
I must say even those without zebras deserve to be here regardless of age or experience... They are the forum's future L046 keepers. I wouldn't be here if I didn't think people gave good advice. And the consensus that we can link reputation to trust is complete idiocy. I have seen posts from "certain" people that do nothig for the site, apart from scare new users from posting.

One particular person talks in riddles, and launches sly personal attacks under the noses of the moderators. And the other picks on a 13 year old. Very mature.

We definately need new users. If not only for variety.
Last edited by madmoroccan on Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
[img]http://www.geocities.com/madmoroccan/zebcam.jpg[/img]
a1fox
Forum Follower
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:18 am
Location: calgary alberta
Contact:

Post by a1fox »

Barbie wrote:Don't worry, you didn't kick the hornets nest and maybe getting some of this aired out will settle things down. We have a few members with very differing views that obviously have no intention of "getting along". That doesn't mean you need to take it to heart because you posted a question that then got tied to a runaway horse ;).

Quite a few of us miss the days where people on the site genuinely wanted to help each other and not spend so much time looking over the neighbors fence to judge him. It would be great to see people going back to the attitude in that thread, IMO.

Barbie
Hi Barbie, i just felt to need to reply to you as well, and I appreciate
your input. I come to this site, and some of its members typically
privately, just to avoid arising conflicts. I am here for the fish- I wnat
to find out what i can from who, and the reason I do alot privately
is to avoid the 'squabbles'. My beliefs too tend to be pretty strong
and rub some the wrong way, but when it comes down to it, for me,
like most with my way of thinking, there are bound to be people
that disagree. I have NO doubt fish is a priority for most of us,
but when some people "peck" at someone else, theres bound to
be a backlash. I hope that others can see beyond the hissing
match and attitudes, and just look at the info-forget who it
comes from, and have some tolerance for how its delivered.
just cause the delivery of it 'rubs' some, doesnt make it any
less credible or useful.
pleco nut 4 life!
www.deemarkbettacanada.com
dave
Obsessed!!
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: liverpool

Hi

Post by dave »

Your comments are appreciated APS, long live free speech.

Just a few points I do say somewhere in this thread, that we all have a lot to learn.

Some people have expressed an interest in exchange.

Also in dealing with these fish, or life in general, there are different approaches and you never know the right one until you succeed and you can't please all the people all the time.

In addition as stated I am more than willing to support initiatives by other members, personal feelings do not come into it forwarding the cause of this fish does.

I do hope the moderators do not edit this thread.

Dave
User avatar
madmoroccan
Obsessed!!
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:21 pm
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Post by madmoroccan »

[sarcasm]All those amongst us who own a related group of L046 please deastroy it, since in the long run exchange programs that don't get Dave's approval will be frowned apon![/sacracasm]

:lol:

But on a more serious note. I don't see where we are going with this?
[img]http://www.geocities.com/madmoroccan/zebcam.jpg[/img]
october004
Groupie
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: Greenville, Ohio

Post by october004 »

Well this just keeps going and going.

Mad I believe that the comment about the 13 year old was aimed at me, fine but let me just say something, I am not an expert and have never claimed to be, but I don't think that I should be attacked every time I put up zebs for sale by certain people that aren't even in the business. If that kid really wanted a zeb and he knew what he was doing and paid the shipping I would send him 1! I am not out to make money or anything else and if you can send him 2 then why don't you and he can have 3.

I am so tired of people that think they know something and they rattle it off and they don't know from experience only book knowledge. If you study it out that is why people don't like generals who even though they may have graduated and know alot about strategy they have never been in battle. All I said to start this mad house is that I wish there was a way were we could put down an experience level.

Would it be so hard to have how many years people have raised fish, how many they have raised zebras, have they ever bred zebras, how many times have they gotten spawns? You would think I was personally insulting someone by asking for them to be honest about there experience. And notice I said years raising "fish" also. I believe that there is alot of things you can learn from people that have been raising different fish and not just the zebs. All I am saying is if there is people giving advice let it be good, accurate, experience backed advice. So that when new people get on here for info they get the right info to start with.

I don't understand why this thread turned into an attack on people. Are we that immature?
Oh and mad I believe I even apologized for my comment did I not? When is the last time you apologized for a sarcastic outburst?
dave
Obsessed!!
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: liverpool

Hi

Post by dave »

At no point have I even implied that colonies of related fish should be destroyed.

Within this thread I have stated that the whole is greater than the individual no matter who it is.

If I have offended a minor please let me know who it is, I will send an apology as I do not wish to dampen a young hobbyists enthusiasm.

I do realise I have alienated a number of people on this site, but on the otherhand there are others who are likeminded.

My views are now well known, and I had intended to take more of a back seat. All I will respond to in the forseeable future is where it is inferred I have said something that I haven't, personal assessments and supporting any initiatives that people come up with that will benefit the fish.

Dave
User avatar
Rob
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:50 am
Location: Southwest Scotland
Contact:

Post by Rob »

I don't know how to reply to this thread.

I will not edit it because it lays out some valid points. I do however disagree with how it has developed. There are personal attacks, insults and pettiness.

This thread could be a good one if everyone can refrain from getting personal. It is a general chat about something that could have a constructive outcome.

Throughout the evolution of this forum I have tried to stay "impartial" and "unbiased" because I do not see this as a forum that is "Owned" by Zebrapleco.com. We simply host it and every individual that contributes has a part in making it work. I have said it before and I will say it again we cannot guarantee that everyone will get on , it is human nature. We can however enforce the Forum rules http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732

If people do not wish to be "moderated" or edited, do not break the rules. We are not trying to set up a communist state here we are trying to keep a public resource friendly and accessible to all.

I will break one rule here, because I feel it must be shouted out.

"DO NOT RESORT TO PERSONAL INSULTS OR ATTACKS ON INDIVIDUALS"

They are personal issues and of no interest to the forum.

The moderators and myself put a great deal of effort into the site. If the general consensus is that everyone wishes it to be a free for all then so be it. We will let it run wild and then take it off line when it becomes too offensive and overrun with comments irrelevant to the topics.

I am not specifically talking about this thread but the general atmosphere over recent months. If this is my fault for not having the time to moderate the site personally then I apologize. All I ask is that every member whilst in the public domain treats other members with respect. Please do argue points but do not under any circumstances turn it into playground bickering and backhanded comments.

I feel it is important to let this topic run but please take a serious look at the rules. We have not created them for a laugh they are there to enable us to keep the forum on line.

Quickly on the subject of Aquarank, this site is a small site, with a very small pool of resources to pull from, if Aquarank makes us easier to find when someone types in "zebra pleco" to a search engine then fair play. To be honest I would rather see people rallying together to climb up Aqurank than slating fellow members.

If anyone has any problems with what I have said, my conduct, or the way in which I run the site please send me a PM I am more than willing to listen.

Thank you all for reading.
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
october004
Groupie
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:16 pm
Location: Greenville, Ohio

Post by october004 »

Rob, there is no doubt that every one appreciates this site and while I am not perfect I do have a personal weakness to not answering people when they attack me either through words or actions. I apologize if I have broken the rules. I do wish now I had let this one lie where it was.
User avatar
Rob
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:50 am
Location: Southwest Scotland
Contact:

Post by Rob »

October004 The topic itself is a fair question, if not a little impossible to answer. We cannot stop people from making assumptions, but we can "manage" the forum to try and make sure the advice thatis given, fromwhoever, is valid and useful.

thank you.
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
Post Reply