How we judge the reputation....

[october004]

Hi, I am just curious to know why we judge the reputation of the people on here based on the amount of times they post (least that is what is seems like it is based on). I think we are sending the wrong signals. We have people on here that have full reputations because they post all the time but some don't even own zebras.... I think this is a little ironic. I mean they can regurgitate what they have read but it would be like me saying "ok I have never driven a car but I have read all about it so let me teach you how to do it. I just think there should be a better way to do it so a lot of these new people aren't taking advice from people that don't even have fish tanks.

[dave]

I agree, and as pretty as the fish is, people should get some experience with other fish first.

Unfortunately climbimg up aquarank seems to be this sites priority at the moment ( Judging by the number of posts ). I'm not sure how this benefits the fish, perhaps somebody could explain, there is already an interest in this fish, no need to generate more.

Your only stating what many members of this site think.

Dave

[Barbie]

Nowhere on the site do any of the admins recommend people check a post count before they take advice from anyone, do they? If they did, I'd definitely like to know where so we can rectify it. The public forum tends to be a method used to allow people to dispute ideas that are less than "accepted", or outright backwards. It's one of the reasons we encourage everyone to ask specialized questions on the board, not by PM. That way everyone can learn from the discussion surrounding it.

We can definitely look into a user generated rating system of some type for the board software. I think it would be a great idea, but it can also be more additional work. It's also going to be hard to police to be sure people aren't just abusing the system to make their "reputation" better. I'll see what I can find though, and see if Rob approves of any of them, or better yet, feels up to spending the time to implement them .

Dave, please, do us all a favor and lighten up a wee bit. People messing around with showing their approval of the site by pushing it up aquarank isn't going to endanger the species or drive off serious members and MAY allow a few interested hobbyists to get further in their quest for knowledge for our wonderful fishie friends.

Again, please,, think about the tone that all this negativity is giving the site. Life is just too short.

Barbie

[madmoroccan]

@october004
It's simple, when it comes to advice on the internet any that you choose to take is at your own risk.

We have people on here that have full reputations because they post all the time but some don't even own zebras....

Can you be a bit more specific (names)

@dave
With regards to aquarank, andyaps.com and I are doing something for the site, it may not be much, but it's something. Not everybody can give fish to the zoo (well done). As for the merits of aquarank; More users = more accumulated knowledge. Everybody has something to give no matter how small. Please feel free to comment on our evils.

[october004]

I didn't mean to stir up a hornest's nest I just was curious. I also would prefer not to mention names because I don't want to seem to be attacking anybody. Also there is no where stating to look at the number of posts but it seems to be a natural reaction. If you see five posts than they must not know alot but if you see 500 they must know a bunch. It is just an idea on whether there is a way to help people know who to listen to.

[dave]

I never suggested that pushing this site up aquarank would endanger the species.

This site also brings together many people with a common interest, who have in their posession many L46's.

I also applaud everybody who has laid out significant amounts of cash to acquire breeding groups, the more fish around the better.

What I have proposed on this site are a Zoo population, an exchange programme to avoid inbreeding and recovering fish from community tanks. This was debated, and all I got initially was negatives or no response to the Zoo, and a limited response to the exchange. I look forward to meeting those who are thinking about an exchange.

In the next couple of months a couple of site members will be taking some fish off me.

Now if this is negativity, then I have some serious issues with my parents, the UK Education system and anybody who had any say in my upbringing.

As for my posts that are deemed less than complimentary, I don't think they are, it is my way of trying to benefit L46's.

I do know there are some people who agree with me and others that do not, would we have it any other way, good healthy debate.

Of those that agree, some are helping out, others can't because they can't get the fish.

I still have quite a bit of work to do with what I've started, but if other members of this site can propose any ideas, I'd be more than happy to listen and if viable join in.

I do intend to be open about what I do with L46's and post my opinions.

I also agree that life is too short, so guess I should increase my typing speed.

Dave

[thebuddy]

So people who have kept plenty of other fish, and read as much as they can on zebras but cant afford them yet must know nothing?

I think normally that's how the Internet works people judge how much you know by your posts simply because it should mean you've been on any particular forum for longer then someone with less posts, therefore you must have read more. My opinion is that it seems most of the people who have fish and almost certainly the the people who breed them spend less time on the forums and more time with there fish so even though they know more they end up looking to like they know less to new people. On any other forum I would probably take the answer of someone with 500 posts over someone with 50 because it normally means they know more. In a fish forum that isn't the case as I already said but people who are new to fish and have been on forums before think that that's how it works.

and I think the reason we want to be number one in aqua rank is because it give rob a smile in the morning and more importantly it helps generate awareness of the site and our wonderful fish.

Sorry that was a long post...i don't think I've ever typed a longer one.

[madmoroccan]

@october004:

I wasn't suggesting that what say is wrong... more to the point I was going to reply with what thebuddy just said. Owning the fish doesn't automatically mean you know everything. The internet is a mysterious place. There are good and bad things. But when it comes to information... Somebody who has a vast knowledge of how to use it is likely to know more about the things they like even if they have never owned '62 Cadillac...

You haven't stirred up a hornets nest either... It is better to discuss something than keep it locked in your mind.

@Dave:

I have a question I would like to level at you with regards to "your" exchange program:

How do you know that the fish people want to swap with yours aren't diseased?

How do people know the fish your giving them aren't diseased?

Simple: They don't... You don't... the early stages of any disease ESPECIALLY internal parasites are hard to diagnose if not close to impossible without cutting the fish open.

No offence but if people show a disinterest it's because they have doubts, not because they dislike you or don't want to do anything meaningful.

@thebuddy:

The forum wouldn't be the same without people like you... when you get something right it's great! When you get something wrong, it's even better because you're in the right place for advice.


To sum up I don't think it's ok to rubbish other people simply because they don't agree with your own views, nor is it right to assume that just because someone owns the fish their advice is correct. In short whatever advice you choose to take it is at your own discretion.

[october004]

Well....I am not saying that people that don't own zebs don't know anything about them or that if you do you know everything about them. I just get frustrated when I see people post questions and others answer out of what they read and not out of legitimate experience. I mean look at it this way. You are telling somebody to try something you haven't tried and do something you haven't done and you are telling them it is going to work. How do you know? I have talked to several different people and breeders throughout this forum and one on one and the only thing that is consistent is that people have there own nich that works for them when breeding these guys. All I am saying is if you aren't a breeder don't try to come across like you are. If you are a breeder then I think you should have a way to keep track of people and mark them so you know how accomplished of a breeder they are. Make almost like a fish club that isn't regional but internet. Give out breeder plaques and accomplishment awards for people and attach that to their signatures so then there isn't any question. Just some thoughts.

[dave]

Diseased fish, yes there is always a chance.

Quarantine tanks are very useful. New Zebras at least a month, usually longer, keeping bloodlines separate until they mature, or the group I got from Scarborough yesterday, 6 adults on there own until they breed.

As for doubts, understandable. Alistair off this site has seen my fish, he is taking 3 in the next couple of weeks.

Another member is taking some at the end of August.

Both have agreed to state their opinion on the fish if asked, hopefully this will alleviate any doubts about my authenticity.

Another member who is considering an exchange will be looking at the fish before he agrees, fair enough.

Am I taking a chance by not seeing what I am getting, I don't think so, if people are breeding them, a fair chance that they will be quality fish.

As for levels of expertise, when taking advice off people use a bit of common sense. Different things work, I have an undergravel filter and internal power filter in each Zebra tank, most people seem to have bare bottom tanks and all sorts of fancy filter set ups. Guess what both work, we still have a lot to learn about this little fella.

Dave

[madmoroccan]

@October004:

I don't see how telling the world you have bred the fish serves to do anything more than advertise the fish you are trying to sell.

Personally I refrain from giving advice on breeding... I have never done so, hence it would be unwise to advise on things I haven't done... As for most other things, I have a long history of keeping fish tanks in the past and I will only pass on advice if I know about something.

I feel that the opinion that when an "expert breeder" gives their view no other view should be considered is absolute tripe.

And that's not to say that you were referring to me specifically, atleast I hope you weren't. I would rather not get personal.

@Dave:

Just because you put some fish in a quarantine tank that doesn't mean that if they were to die you don't lose out. You will be 1 fish down at the very least. That is still a large loss considering the value. And since you give importance to a PFK article that says adult fish are worth 700+ pounds, that would be a massive loss. Do you agree with own view on value?

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2156

I am going to choose not post anymore replies on this topic. I don't see how this discussion furthers our forum. After all new users wouldn't be allowed to post if certain people had some control over ZP

[dave]

Well Madmorrocan answering your question.

Different people have different approaches to this fish in particular, and the extremes are totally commercial or just for love, and there are many points inbetween.

The ideal being getting this fish back to pre-ban prices and also supplying good quality fish.

To do this, you are dealing with the different approaches mentioned above, it could be cash, cash + fish, so to acquire the WC sitting in peoples tanks a flexible approach is required. I have no doubt that acquiring these fish will benefit the captive breeding population.

Individual circumstances also dictate what individuals can do. The whole is greater than any individual no matter who it is.

Anybody who keeps this fish should try and breed it and their contribution is as valuable as anybody elses.

If breeding related fish, then every effort should be made to exchange to introduce new blood or if people are lucky enough to be in posession of WC keep a record of which young are related.

As to cash value, I'll pay what I need to. As to my selling price, no doubt I will get complaints if it is unreasonable. I will say though that cash is not the determining factor, it is more who it is.

I also would much rather exchange, hopefully this will happen more frequently once people start taking my fish and a degree of trust is built up.

Dave

[Plastic Mac]

It would seem this topic is constantly expanding to encompass more and more issues...perhaps if this topic is to reach a conlusion we should try and keep it on track?

The original question seems to be two fold.

1. Should non-owners of zebra plecs be allowed to post responses to questions asked about zebra's?

The main point here is, this is a public forum and the word public is as important as the word forum. By only allowing those who own zebra's to comment would make this one very restrictive forum..and quite possibly put future possible members off from joining.
Of course it would be nice if every non-owner stated as much and just claimed it to be an idea which may help...but that would be an impossible to implement. Plus I've often found some of the best ideas and answers come from those who are looking at the subject with a fresh pair of eyes. No potential idea should be discarded until it has been posted for everyone to give their opinion on it .I would not want for people to be scared to post an opinion for feeling they don't know enough on the subject or are too scared of a backlash from everyone to post their idea...for all we know they just might be onto something.



2. The second question seems to revolve around reputation.

To judge reputation on post count is without a doubt a flawed concept. The only thing a post count shows is how many times you have posted. After all, I could have joined today and posted 80 posts already...what would that mean exactly?
The only way to judge reputation properly in my opinion is to talk to each other and discuss the issues (respectfully! ) only then will we understand each others knowledge on which ever subject may be in question. So get posting!!!
Of course if you wish to take a quicker route to knowing someones reputation then why not read the 'Who is everyone' topic, located here:

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=189

Although I'll admit this is somewhat out of date, perhaps it's time to start a new one or just add to the exsisting one with all the fresh faces we have.

Plastic Mac

[Rob]

Thanks for that Plastic.

Also, thanks for this rather interesting discussion, it is quite a tricky one.

On one hand I can see the logic of people associating number of posts with knowledge and experience, but unfortunately I do not see a way of changing that association, it is human nature. I thinkthe idea of creating a heirarchy of breeders however would also create an unrealistic impression. There is however software out there that allows you to vote on reputations, i.e. rate the advice given that then helps build a reputation. I must admit however that this makes me nervous as I feel ti would fuel more "bad feelings" within the site.

It is not possible for us to restric users posts to "Only Informative ones that re good advice". Yes, we could police it more and be more harsh with our moderating, but to what extend and where do we draw the line. We have already been accused of being "too Opinionated" and "elitest".

The site is continually evolving and picking up knowledge and speed, as ths ite increases, so will the grievences. All we can do is continue to try and meet eh sites goal, whic his..once again for thaose at the back...

"to assist the hobbyist with the generaly husbandry and breeding of Hypancistrus Zebra".

[madmoroccan]

I am so jealous of that topic! The people seemed so friendly and full of fun. What happened? Where did it all go wrong?

I would like to be the first to wave the white flag... I don't like the idiotic bickering.

Reputation? Who cares?

Why can't we start a topic like that one and start again?