Breeding for conservation purposes?

Whats happening in the wild, current issues and debates....oooh this one'll get hot!

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Andyt.
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Breeding for conservation purposes?

Post by Andyt. »

I was wondering if anyone had thought of using this forum/organization (www.zebrapleco.com) to apply to IBAMA (Instituto Brasileiro de Meio Ambiente e recursos Naturais Renováveis) for a scientific permit to export Zebra Plecos for the purposes of breeding for conservation?

I noticed in this thread, a link to an English translation of a Datz article called What's happening in Brazil? In addition, via another thread I found a link to an email exchange between a hobbyist and Dr. Ning Labbish Chao about the export of Zebra plecos. The article included this important quote:
On 28th May 2004 the MMA published a list of Brazilian invertebrates and fishes threatened by extinction. This list consists of 156 fish species that are forbidden from being caught, traded or even bred in captivity (the only exception is for scientific studies) from the 1st July 2004.
It seems to me that perhaps this forum could serve as a nonprofit institution for the captive breeding of these fish. I don't know what the process of applying would be, but it might be worth looking into.

Obviously there are problems with this idea. Just off the top of my head I can think of several possible objections to this idea:

This is not the intent of the forum owner and moderators
May require establishing some sort of legal structure acceptable to the government of Brasil to do so
This forum is not a scientific institution
Potential restrictions on selling captive bred offspring
Determining who would be allowed to import Zebras
People who are currently selling Zebras for a massive profit may object


However, with all of that said, it does seem that it might be worth looking into seeing if hobbyists could formally participate in the conservation of possibly endangered species. I'm probably not the first to think of this, but I don't see any posts similar to this idea here.
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Post by dave »

I'm not so sure, do we want to put further pressure on the wild fish stock.

I am sure there already enough genetic material in captivity to do this, in the UK alone.

The Nene Goose of Hawaii was down to 30 specimens in the 50's, now a population of 500.

While the zebra ain't that prolific, probably more so than the goose.

So with a bit of care and if we get our act together it should be just fine in captivity.

Dave
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Post by madmoroccan »

I think that is a good idea, though like dave says...

All we would be doing is moving already limited wild stock to the UK, where I might add there is plenty to go around, shame! it seems the biggest problem on our forum is greed not supply.

I think it is a matter of time before the popular reason for purchasing zebs (money) diminishes. As somebody here said to me... Fish farms in the far east are already working on flooding the market with L46 in the next year or two.

Kind regards

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Post by dave »

Now breeding this fish and conserving, this in my mind are two entirely different things, and this in captivity.

In the wild, depletion of the environment, now collecting has stopped is far more likely to lead to the L46's demise.

But back to captivity, as environment is down to politics and even though they are our elected representatives, they take no notice, multi nationals are dictating at the moment and this is really out of the hobbyists hands.

No criticism is meant of the site, in fact I compliment it, it has assisted many people breeding this fish. No criticism is meant of members who have bred this fish, or who intend to breed this fish and maintain this fish for the hobby, the price as it states in the rules of this site, well if people are prepared to pay it, so be it.

Mceve posted a link which related to genetics, which I don't pretend to understand, but got the impression it related to fish farming, but no doubt it could be adapted to L46's by somebody with the necessary expertise.

The only place I can think of where the necessary expertise goes hand in hand with conservation is zoos.

At the moment people are breeding with various degrees of success from wild stock, Germany seems to producing large numbers, Eastern Europe as well ( A disaster for African Cichlid purists ) and finally the far east.

Logic here suggests the more successful the breeder in numbers, the more prominent the genes from that fish stock will become in the hobby, thus diminishing the size of the overall gene pool.

How many people would be prepared to donate 1 F1 fish lineage known from wild fish to a zoo in order to conserve this fish as we know it.

If there are enough takers then I'll try and find a zoo that will undertake this project. (UK only)

Dave
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Post by Barbie »

The Vancouver Aquarium in BC is already working with a small number of zebras. They had a few things that needed reworked in their plan and they're changing them up now. It will take 3 years to grow F1 fry to spawning size though. I'm not sure exactly why a zoo would be required to conserve the fish though, in all honesty. There aren't THAT limited of numbers of them (not like blue eyed panaques). Many people are spawning them and introducing them into the hobby. The numbers in the hobby aren't on the decline now that there are less available, they are just tending to be bought more by people serious about spawning them, rather than keeping them as a pretty fish they might see once a month. I know I give definite preference to people that are interested in purchasing a group of fish, rather than just singles. I'm sure there are other people with the same outlook.

I think the Shedd Aquarium also has a group and I heard rumors that another aquarium down south was looking to purchase a group. I would definitely support efforts to get them in the hands of the major zoos, just in case, but I also don't think it's fair to minimize the impact that we as breeders can potentially have on the continued availability of them in the hobby.

For that matter, most zoos don't release fry to the public unless they have such a glut of them that they can't find another zoo to purchase or trade for them.

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Breeding for conservation purposes

Post by stripeythingy »

Why leave the breeding to zoos when people on this forum probably have more expertise. Now here goes with my pie in the sky idea, if forum members were to donate 1 Zebra and pay £5 a month, premises could be rented and a tank the size of a public aquarium built. A major obstacle with this is it would need volunteers to maintain equipment , feeding, etc., travelling to the location might be a problem.

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Post by dave »

Well here we go again.

Mceve recently posted a link about genetics, don't pretend to understand it, it referred to fish farming in the main, shoaling fish where numerous males mate I think, not the case with L46's, but it can be adapted I'm sure.

Breeding is not the problem in my mind, there are plenty of fish out there.
Maintaining the genetic integrity is, so is there a suitably qualified genetecist with sufficient stock of L46 out there who is going to do this?

The Nene goose in the 1950's went down to 30 specimens, with careful selection there is now a population of 500.

Also I'm not saying that everybody should do this, say it took only 30 or 40 unrelated fish to do this, I could provide 3.

While as Barbie states this has already been taken care of in the North Americas, and from the original posting fish are available for scientific purposes, they have access to a few more

It may already be happening in the UK, if so a pointless post, something I better look into.

Now to contradict myself, a number have posts have expressed concern about fish coming in from the Far East, I would add Eastern Europe (An African Cichlid keepers nightmare), so when a breeder develops sufficient expertise, combined with commercial interests, the market gets swamped, thus diminishing the genetic diversity within the captive community.

The hobby is littered with fish that look nothing like there wild counterparts, Common Ancistrus for one, or so I'm told never seen a wild one.

I for one would hate it if future generations would have to travel to Vancouver to see how this fish was meant to be.

Whilst fish once presented to zoos are unlikely to resurface in the hobby, does this really matter if the fish is maintained in it's natural state for posterity.

We hobbyists do have a habit of looking for attractive traits and trying to fix them.

All thoughts welcome

Dave
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Post by madmoroccan »

as my final word on this I would like to say that conservation of the species depends heavily on the Brazilian govt. and more importantly on us (YES, YOU AND ME THE FORUM USERS) as the Brazilian govt. probably couldn't give a monkeys, they prefer to build a dam on the Xingu...

It infuriates me to know that a lot of people who take the hobby do so for financial gain more than conservation. I salute ANYBODY hands down if they are genuinely concerned about conservation. That speaks volumes about the persons character...

However small the contribution... doing something is better than doing nothing. So my message to those who are buying L46 to breed is:

"It doesn't matter how low key your setup is, getting 1 spawn per forum member would mean (depending on size, and how many fry survive) 8x400 fry, that would certainly mean the probability of the species survival have gianormously increased".

Of course I am assuming that 400 forum members have a breeding group. Probably not! But over time if we do something about that, then couldn't we hope to achieve atleast half that number of forum members breeding L46?

Sincerely

Bader.
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Post by dave »

Perhaps if you read the post.

At a max only 30 maybe 40 unrelated specimens are needed.

Guess I'll be doing this myself.

And sorry to hear about the loss of your L333, and the murdering biolife filter, allegedly.

And I'm not sure if I understand the need to buy a stripy thing, but Ancistrus, Baryancistrus, Hypancistrus, Panaques are all terroitorial, and I can go through most of the Datz book and say the same.

All I can say is that mixing fish that occupy the same ecological niche is a chancy thing, from the same family I would say is irresponsible.

Just because L260 and L333 are more available than L46, they deserve the same respect.

I know I might get booted from this site for saying this, but if it saves the life of one fish it's worth it.

Dave
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Post by madmoroccan »

@ Dave...

Sorry to have caused you so much pain and suffering? Was there any need to get personal?

You made too many assumtions about me...

For one the plan was to sell both L260... but the buyer could only afford one till he got payed.
Second... They were both bieng kept in a community tank. I am not a spastic (no offence intended), I have plans to keep a colony of L333 in my community tank... My L333 turned out to be an L236. End of!

For my next point... Where do you get off calling me irresponsible? You don't even know me! I wish there was a way for me to be nice about this but common sense goes out of the window when somebody tries to attack my character. Irresponsible is attacking me because I HAD an L236 and L260 in the same tank... THAT IS 3FOOT WITH PLENTY OF HIDING SPOTS AND WOOD. not to mention that they were both going to be the tank 1 week together... not enough time for them to spawn (they were of opposite gender)! Correct me if I am wrong but can a female (L260) kill a male(L236)? Rant over!

All the same... Well done for saving the species by yourself.

Any moderators reading this;

I am sorry for the nature of thís post, but I do need to defend myself.

Frustratedly

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Post by dave »

Well I have no idea how different species of Hypancistrus interact, especially from different river systems, or even the same river system.

I have no idea, how big the territory of a dominant male is in the wild.

In the overall scheme of things an aquarium is a limited space, and 3' is very limited especially for territorial fish.

The habits of L46 are well documented in the aquarium and who am I to disagree with what has been successful for many. I have had to remove a male L46 that was being badly beaten and this is from a 4'x18"x18" tank and a colony of 11. It got better by the way.

My main experience has been with cichlids, African in the main but lets stick with the Americas, you can have a pair of firemouths, or a pair of convicts in a 3' tank getting on quite happily, both cichlids, mix one of each I guess you end up with one convict especially if both males.

To blame the biolife, never used one, and yes I have lost fish in a filter intake, and recovered fish from cannister filters, some fish you can't predict when they breed or if they are going to breed at all, I'm not pretending to be perfect.

But prospective purchasers of fish should be aware that intakes can capture small fish.

Also the fish may have been unhealthy, how long did you quarantine the fish for?

As for saving the fish, in the hobby it is secure, prices maybe high, one guy on this site posted he was buying 60 from Germany, I recently purchased 15 F1's from a guy who is not registered on the forum, a pic was posted recently of the fry collected after leaving his tank for 6 months.

In the wild the environment is the major factor, this fish is not yet CITES listed. In any appendix,

So it was not to save it as such, but to make it available to all.

Dave
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Post by madmoroccan »

Fair enough... I am open to reasonable disscussion.

So lets discuss my pleco related character...

1) The fish was very healthy, no it wasn't quarantined... It was bought from Wildwoods, the only place in the south of england that has L46 for sale ATM. They maintain extremely high standards and I won't be drawn into slagging them off.

2) The fish was trapped between the filter and my gravel... MY FAULT... this has been corrected.

3) The fish 100% died of suffocation (in an extremely well oxygenated tank, pictures of the device concerned with oxygenation (homemade) will be posted when I dimantle it for maintenance, not the biolife). The fish was trapped. No doubt.

4) I am aware of the CITES situation regarding L46.

5) I am sick to death of explaining myself for the death of that fish. IT DIED PERIOD. I wish it didn't but it did. I can't afford another one without putting my L46 purchases to the side.

6) I have already secured the purchase of 5 juviniles (L46). I pick them up on the 29 April (Saturday).

7) I am probably more equipped than most to look after the L46. Finances, setup, intelligence, knowledge, patience...
Not to mention research... I have been on this forum since January, during which I have compiled a manual for the care of Hypancistrus. As for compilation of this research, I am a web designer... If it's on the web and it's related to L46 I have it. I am a listener too...

8) I don't want L46 because of profit... or just as a passing fad... I am buying juviniles so that I can watch them grow and I may one day sell (extremely cheaply) to enthusiasts... Exactly the same notion as you. How do I do this with 1 community tank, and two dedicated to L46? Simple, I am considering saving up for a fish house which will house around 9 tanks, if all goes well I will have built it by the time my plecos are adults.

Anything else you would like to know about me?

How about how many fish are in my community tank? Or What colour is my substrate? What about will I ever forget this attack on me?

Quite simply put, all I did was offer a view. Which for no apparent reason you decided to call my character into judgement. I can understand if I said the things I said because I have somthing against you, BUT I DON'T.

Bader.

PS. I don't think you are the foremost authority on these fish. The knowledge you have is adequate but no more clever or new than what I already gathered from posts that are here already. Still you are entitled to your own views. I cant deny that.
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Post by dave »

Bader nothing personal meant, but you raised a number of issues in my mind, which in turn raised a few more issues.

I myself set up a show tank 6 or 7 years ago 5' x 20" x 20" 1 scobiancistrus auratus, 3 panaque nigrolineatus and 4 gold nuggets, well after a couple of days 1 panaque had gone and one gold nugget to. Well with some makeshift dividers, a lot of patience the survivors are all living together today.

I've decided not to raise any of the issues on this thread, as it will lead back to you, and now me, and really the issues I wish to raise are general.

And once this thread has ceased to resurface, I will raise the issues that I have.

Good luck in your project

Dave
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Post by Andyt. »

madmoroccan wrote:as my final word on this I would like to say that conservation of the species depends heavily on the Brazilian govt. and more importantly on us (YES, YOU AND ME THE FORUM USERS) as the Brazilian govt. probably couldn't give a monkeys, they prefer to build a dam on the Xingu...
Actually, this is the primary source of my concern for the species.
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Post by madmoroccan »

@ andy...

That's my point exactly.... We all want whats best for the species nothing more nothing less. Not discussion into my fish keeping skills by our "superiors". This was a discussion about conservation NOT constipation.

@ dave...

I couldn't give a monkeys what your concerns are! You're no more skilled than anybody else here. And what gives you the right to pass judgement on me? YOU'RE NOBODY.

We all start somewhere, and for you to try to patronise me is even worse than refering to me as one of your subordinates. In fact you don't seem to realise that what goes on in somebodies fish tank is their problem. Learn this for the future and you may not accumulate any enemies.

In other words butt out of my business.

RANT OVER PERMANENTLY. I won't be answering anymore posts on this subject.

Sincerely

Bader.
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