What's wrong with my baby?

If it isn't to late, and you're desperately looking for some advice, hopefully someone can help you out.

User avatar
McEve
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 2871
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by McEve »

LOL - those were the days huh ;)

Did you post pictures of your lot to have the guys here see if there's any females amongst them?

I was convinced I had only males for a year, but now I know better ... :)

I read somewhere that too many suitable spawning caves could make them play musical chairs, the advice was to remove som of the caves to force the strongest to take possession of one. Make them fight for the best one - sounds a bit like back in the younger days too don't it :D

I'm sure Rob knows more about this problem though!
urchysj

Post by urchysj »

Hey you out there that have had spawns. I AM SO JEALOUS!!
I have 33 Zebras and NOTHING!!
(Half are too young anyway)
I am taking some hints from Barbie...yo girl, I admire your brain...I am trying to do the "rainy" season right now. I have soft (softened well water) with a high pH and kH. I m am adding a pail of RO water every day to mimic rain. This is what I got from Barbie..not just to try to lower the Ph but the TDS too. (I didn't know that mattered). Also lowered the temp from 28F down to 25F. AND...this is how stupid this is getting...last night I took my camera (no film in it) and flashed the tank about 30 times to mimic lightening.
They are going to put a straight jacket on me some day.
So you lucky ppl with spawns and BABIES!! CONGRATS and I hope I have your luck some day. I just bought a Zebra...got it today, and it cost me CAN$180. (Too much I know) It was guaranteed a female. She has a bit of Ick, but I see that a lot. Any other things to get a spawn? Some ppl get them without even trying, but not me.
Thanks. And sorry to hear about the little guy McEve.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

Sooo urchysj, I suppose it's a bad thing to tell you that when I gave up on mine ever spawning they finally did? I wouldn't pull the temp in the tank down that far and leave it, I just use cold "rain" water (and yes, I'm the idjit that was out all last winter collecting snow and melting it and using IT to get my plecos going!) and then let the heaters bring it back up to 86 degrees. For a dry season, I upped the temperature to 90 degrees and just used tap water for changes for a month or two. Then I start with the cold water changes (that literally drop the tank temp down 8-10 degrees) and straight RO water to drastically lower the TDS in the tank each day. That's the only thing that worked for my L260, but since these zebras have been going, they're really not all that picky about what it takes to get them to spawn, to be honest.

I'd think with 32 zebras you should be stacking the deck to success pretty well though!

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
McEve
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 2871
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by McEve »

urchysj wrote:Some ppl get them without even trying, but not me.
Thanks.
Well, that's not quite true :P I actually had to do something to get them started, and have been trying for a year.
urchysj

Post by urchysj »

Hi McEve. I didn't read anywhere if you had a lucky spawning or you were trying. So it's not just luck! Congrats for your efforts.

Barbie..after what you said, I ran downstairs and turned the temp back up. Back to 27F and I'll raise it a bit more tomorrow. I had just drained about 50% of the water out and added another pail of RO water. Guess what idiotic idea I'm trying to do now? :idea: My crazy theory is that when a river gets gourged, current dramatically increases. So that's what I'm trying to do now...increase my current even more by taking lots of water OUT...maybe they will think their river is being flooded by rain (using RO water for this) and spawn. Flashed the tank a few more times too with my camera. Thanks for the advice. I heard of the snow idea. But I didn't know lowering the temp was a very temporary action.
I have some large L260's too...not really trying to spawn them, but they're next! (I have 10 very mature, large ones and 4 smaller)
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

Just make sure that you only do the rainy season for a week or so, max. Then a couple weeks of just small tap water changes to bring the TDS back up, then another rain. I also add live worms to their diet for the week of the rainy season. Abundant food can definitely trigger a few types of Tanganyikan cichlids, so I figured it can't hurt. It would definitely be something that was getting "washed" around when the rains start, so it might work as another trigger. My zebras never really showed more of a feeding response to them, but most people think they were already fat to start with :p

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
Rob
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:50 am
Location: Southwest Scotland
Contact:

Post by Rob »

Hi Urchysj

If it makes you feel any better, I hade been trying to spawn zebras for about 5 years, with no luck. I tried everything, qnd then finally, (when a couple of mates were here helping me do some landscaping) A female finally wehn intot the cave and left me a little present. How big is your set up, is it possible that the 33 zebras provide too much cimpetition for each other, and therefore don't feel safe enough to spawn, or do they all have their own territories? The chances are it is just time. like barbie stated, once they start, they are not all that fussy. UNless I actually want to induce a spawn, I don't really simulate the rainy season anymore, I just leave them to do their thing.

Personally, I've found that the key seems to be a good male. If you have one that is a good hairy, butch looking fella, try and set up his onw little are of the tank. You never know!

Good luck

Rob
User avatar
McEve
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 2871
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by McEve »

I saw another one that is starting to develop a large tummy. He's not as large as the other one, but it's not just simply a full tummy of food.

I have measured the water:
Ph 7
O2 8
temp 29
no measurable hardness (it's like that in the tap, I add KH hardener in the other tanks, but not the Zebra tanks)

I had a rather large mangrove root in the fry tank. I decided to remove that, just in case.

I will also stop feeding with Tetra Discus, just incase that's causing swelling after it's been eaten, and feed them only the home made shrimp and veggie mix for a while.

What else can I do? Is any of the things I've mentioned above the wrong decision?
Adam
Moderator
Posts: 1604
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Adam »

McEve,

Your water parameters look spot on so I doubt that the problem lies there.

Found this on the net about mangrove trees. Have a look at the description at number 13, I wonder if this could have been the problem.

http://www.goaforest.com/forestsofgoa/b ... groves.htm

I would imagine that all you have is a bit of the mangrove tree's roots which would make it difficult to classify the species.

I was wondering, mangroves grow in salt water and therefore you would expect the roots to have a high salt content. Perhaps a zebra snacking on some mangrove root would excessively raise it's internal salt content and then be prone to bloating with water. It's a long shot, but the main thing is that you've taken the mangrove out of the tank.
User avatar
McEve
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 2871
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by McEve »

Thanks Adam.

I checked with a LFS today, to see if they knew what kind of mangrove roots they got in when they ordered them, or if they knew where they came from. Turned out they don't. The order roots, and get what they get without knowing anything about them. On this background it might very well be that it is indeed the root that is the problem.

On the other hand, the two affected fry both come from the second batch, the one where I stole the eggs. I wonder if that has something to do with it... something about lacking parental care or something..?
Adam
Moderator
Posts: 1604
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Adam »

McEve,

Only time will tell if the mangrove root was the problem, if you continue to lose the fry then it will almost certainly be down to some other cause. It is starting to look like there may be something wrong with the batch of fry that were "hand reared". Not so much the way you reared them or as you put it the lack of parental care, I suspect that the fry belonging to this batch could possibly have some sort of congenital defect that they were born with. If any more fry from this batch succumb to the same bloating I would then favour this theory. However if you lose any fry from another batch in the same way then I would suspect that there could be some sort of pathogen in the tank. I'm afraid that only time will tell, it's best to play the waiting and watching game for the time being. I wouldn't start dosing the tank with chemicals just yet, well not until you know what your up against.

How's the second fry doing?

Just my thoughts
Des
Mentally Certified!
Posts: 553
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: Surrey, England

Post by Des »

Hi McEve,
I have brought up Sturisoma Aureum fry ( which are supposed to be difficult to raise) and Ram fry using a high quality ,high protein food ( which comes in many different grades) from
http://www.zmsystems.demon.co.uk/
and will be using the same food for my zebra fry, ie. when they arrive. I only hope I dont have to wait as long as Rob. !!!!!!!. The guy/scientist who owns it is very knowledgeable and helpful. He will also send you sample packs of the different grades if requested .
No home made foods, shrimp mixes etc for me. The chances of the babies choking is too high, similarly with chopped up bloodworm. For the time being you should carry on using the tetra prima if ground up.
Are your babies in a bare bottomed tank? I think the risks of spoiled food in sand or gravel in a fry tank is too great.
Regards,
Des.
Last edited by Des on Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

Hi Des.
I can't see the link...says there are no uplinks. Does anyone else notice it isn't working?
As for my 33 fish, I have the 20 larger ones together in 85gals. They all have their own spots. I had to take some decor out because it was not getting used. I have 7 young in a 20gal, 5 med size in another tank, and 1 new one sharing a 5 gal with a baby Mango. She's in quarantine.
User avatar
McEve
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 2871
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:33 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Post by McEve »

Des, I can understand your sceptisism towards home made food for the fry, but this recipe has been used for several years by breeders in Norway for Loricariidae. It's also being sold in stores, and it's considered the best thing you can give them. Choking has never been an issue with this food, as it's thoroughly blended in a food processor, and consists of the nutrients they are considered needing, without any artificial additives.

I spoke with a Zebra breeder who had his first spawn back in 1996 (The first one to succeed in Norway with Zebras. His group is still productive too!), and he was mortified that I gave them Tetra Discus, as he had lost fry after feeding them this food due to it swelling in their stomachs. I know several other breeders are giving them this food, so I reckoned it should be safe if crushed finely, but maybe he was right after all, based on what I am experiencing now.

It's very hard to know exactly what is causing this to happen, as there are as many opinions as there's people I ask. Right now I tend to agree with Adam, it might be that spawn that had a congenital defect, the spawn they origin from is the only one with that particular female, or maybe it was because they ware hand reared - or maybe again it's the food causing them constipation. Maybe it's a bacterial infection, but it seems strange that none of the older ones has got it - so far, touch wood - the ones having been in the tank the longest should develop the problem first if it was something in the water - or one should think so.

Or maybe it was the mangroove root. I'm totally devastaded and confused as to what is causing this to happen - every fry is precious and I really don't want to loose any more....

Thanks for taking an interest and trying to help me solve this problem.
Adam
Moderator
Posts: 1604
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Adam »

McEve,

It might be an idea to consider everything as a possible suspect at the moment until you get to the root of the problem. I think that Des has raised a very good point about the diet you have the zebras on at the moment. He also mentioned having the fry in a bare bottomed tank another good idea well worth considering.

This is how I see it, if you eliminate the possible causes one by one then what ever you are left with however unlikely may well be the answer.
Post Reply