Shocking deaths at waterchanges

[INXS]

I have read about McEves casualties and possibly one other person from Norway along with someone else but it escapes me.

It involves young zebras dying - fast.

I have noticed that young zebras , and sometimes older ones too go into shock at waterchanges.

I noticed a youngster over 1" spasming and being tossed and twirled by the current as if he was dead and recently (yesterday) some really young ones going through the same thing , unfortunatly some of them didn't make it.

This has been happening at waterchanges but get this - sometimes they start going into shock as the waterlevel is lowered , before any new water is added????

Yesterday I added some slightly cooler water and did a 50% change, I did add some declhlorinator and just did what I always do.
At first all the zebras became very livley (as usual)
Many of the babies were out and sucking on the glass, wood and along the bottom.

About 5 minutes after the waterchange as I was watching, one of the babies became lifeless and was being washed away by the current and tossed around , suddenly it happened to another, and another, and so on..

About 5-6 of them went on like this, but several of them came back and started to act normal and them shooked again. I watched for a while and didn't know what to do, I checked the NO3 and it is around 15, temp was dropped from 84 to about 75 and all else seemed fine, the adults just became more active and even the youth zebra didn't go into shock.

THis morning I counted 3 dead

Any ideas why this may be happening?

[McEve]

did you check the PH? I've never heard of anything like this before....
How old were they?

[INXS]

Yep, the PH was the first thing I checked.
They were about a month old.

I am thinking that maybe there could be chloramin in the water - kindof weird as I would expect there to be more chlorin/chloramine in the summer then winter to combat heat and quicker bacteria growth. Or there could be salt runof from the roads going into the ground water but we are on city water.

I have been noticing that this is happening at waterchanges more frequently.

[Telnes]

I dont know if this is the same problem as we had inn Bergen, but after some problems due to heavy rainfall, many off us both waterfilters to have on our tap water. This removes much of the heavy metals,cloride..
Heres a picture and info, but its a Norwegian site... it only costed about 20 £ .

http://www.vvspluss.no/?a_id=2100

[McEve]

4 weeks is a critical stage, just when they start feeding. I've heard of many that loose the most fry at this age, although it's definately not a feeding problam you're experiencing.

I would still think this is a time when they need as little stress as possible, might even be a good idea to try timing the water changes so you don't need to change for a couple of weeks around this age. Not doing you much good now though!

My first thought was that therer must be something in the water, but you say they start going into chock *before* any new water is added as well? The only thing I can think of then is pure stress...

Mine were at that age when I started loosing them to the osmosis break down, In hindsight it might have been provoked by being moved to a different tank, stress related..? ... Pure spekulations though

oh, btw: I've heard that chloramine is much more lethal than chlorine, maybe someone can confirm or deny this? In any case, you could check with your water supplier what they put in the water, but from experience you can't always trust them either! Or maybe that's just here in Oslo

[INXS]

Telnes, thanks - I will check into it.

McEve - probably just Oslo, you know them norwegians - I heard the Library in Oslo had to close............because someone stole the book.


I am probably going to start doing much smaller waterchanges from now on. It seems as if that is the problem , the shock will be lesser.

[Tom Kvitnes]

Hello !

This sounds like the problem i had, but i dont think it is the waterchange that shocks them. I think it is just you getting aware of the disease because the fish gets a bit worked up by the waterchanges. If its is the same thing i experienced, i am convinced that the fish is sick and barely hangs in there until something disturbs them and they try to move.

First i found one dead fry, and it was when i was removing him i discovered the problem. I didnt notice anything until i started to move some pieces of slate i had in the tank.
I then noticed that some of my fry had lost the capability to swimm, they just seem to shake and whirl around on the bottom. The first 2 days i lost around 20-30 fry, i started an eSHa 2000 treatment that McEve sent me, and that seemed to do work, the rest of the fry survived. But it is still a mysteri what happend.
I checked all water values, but could not come up with any reason why this happend. The fry that died was from newborn to eight monts old.

Hope someone can help sort this out, because it nearly killed me losing that many fry this way

Regards

Tom

[Mindy]

Chloramine is simply chlorine ions bonded to ammonia ions. So when you add a dechlorinator, it does in fact remove the chlorine, but it leaves the ammonia behind. I believe that is where the problem lies with chloramine. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

In the winter, with higher levels of rainfall, there is more run-off from farmers fields (and thus fertilisers, etc) and what not, and it all ends up in our water supply. So the chemical composition of the water can vary from season to season. It's worth checking at regular intervals. You can also contact your water company and ask for a breakdown of the water. They should be able to tell you if there is chloramine in your water supply.

Having said that, I lost two of my five fry after a water change a couple months ago . There is something about w/c's that affects them, as so many of us have seen. In my case, there's a big eheim on the tank and I noticed the flow rate was down so I cleaned it, which obviously removed a lot of the water from the tank which had to be replaced. The fry died soon after. I can only imagine it was a pH thing. I've been very careful ever since. Doing more frequent changes, but with less water. Like only half to 3/4's of a bucket. It seems to be working because the fry are healthy and... better still, there's a very fat female that's been trying to get in with my alpha male for a few days now! Fingers crossed!!!!

[Plastic Mac]

Chloramine is simply chlorine ions bonded to ammonia ions. So when you add a dechlorinator, it does in fact remove the chlorine, but it leaves the ammonia behind. I believe that is where the problem lies with chloramine. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Just emailed my g/f for her opinion as she has a degree in higher chemistry. I'll admit most of what she says goes straight over my head but hopefully this will mean something to the people requesting answers. If not I cam get her to explain it in more detail (and more simplified ) later if required.


No, that's not strictly correct....amines are organic derivatives of ammonia and form Nitrogen-Carbon bonds rather than Nitrogen-Hydrogen (ammonia = NH3). Depending on the type of chloramine you started with, the dechlorinator used, the temperature and pressure that it was used at, etc, you'll get different compounds.

Not sure if this helps but here's an article I found on it...

http://www.gewater.com/library/tp/813_Chloramines_.jsp

You'll note they talk about "TRACE" amounts of ammonia in the water where chloramines are present. You could just as easily get nitrogen and carbon dioxide gases depending on the starting conditions...

Simple innit!:D

[macquatic]

OK I'm new here but.......
seems to me that you all use tapwater/maybe rainwater and add further chemicals to get rid of the chlorine/chloramine/heavy metals.
Below is a pic of my purifier which removes virtually everything from my tap. (I've very soft water and a fairly neutral pH, buffered by the local Water Board)

Pod #1 - 1 micron sediment filter, Pod #2 - EP10 carbon block filter, pod #3 - CBR2/Metalex filter. This setup removes removes chlorine/chloramine, dissolved metals (inc lead and mercury), pesticides and Cryptosporidium & Giardia cysts. This setup doesn't affect pH or TDS readings. No chemicals used and much cleaner.
I then store in barrels which takes the temp right up to the same as the fish-house. Never had any problems with water changes when breeding Cories, that's not to say that Zebras are the same and may well be a bit more sensitive. I would have thought though, that as a lot of you L46 breeders are breeding from F1/2/? fish that they would be a lot less sensitive.
Just a thought. Mac.

[Adam]

I too have been losing a lot of young zebra fry recently, fished out another 2 casualties this morning. Over the last couple of months I have lost somewhere in the region of 25 fry.

I really can't figure out what is happening. They make it to about 3/4 weeks old and then just die for no apparent reason. However this problem doesn't appear to affect all of the fry as some are doing very well and appear to be healthy, the adults and other youngsters in the tank are all doing well. The alpha male continues to spawn regularly and is now even spawning "back to back". He will spawn even while he is still caring for another older batch of fry. For the time being I have stopped taking the fry from the male and he is doing a very good job of caring for them himself.

All water parameters are good and I have tested with different kits just to make sure. Filters are not clogged and nothing has changed in the aquarium, no new additions. I have also medicated the tank with a course of Esha 2000 twice now and yet there has been no improvement.

Initially I suspected my RO unit's cartridges were spent even though my TDS meter didn't suggest this was the case. I recalibrated the TDS meter and borrowed my friends one too just to make sure. I replaced the CBR2 carbon blocks, prefilters and DI resin cartridge anyway.

Even after all of this the fry continue to die, I do not suspect disease as surely all the fry would have been affected. I'm guessing that some water parameter is out somewhere. I have a couple of spare canister filters and I'm planning on filling one with phosphate and nitrate removal medias just to see if that helps matters. I am also considering putting my UV unit on the tank for a while so as to lower the background bacteria count.

The fry die regardless of how I do water changes but I have been changing smaller amounts more frequently and I make sure that the TDS and temperature are the same.

I'm getting desperate now and would very much appreciate any advice that anyone can offer. Please feel free to offer up oppinions/suggestions however outlandish as I am pretty much prepared to try anything if it helps.

Apologies for my absence from the forum of late but all of this has been getting me down, I came close to jacking it all in a few weeks back when I lost 6 fry in one day.

Regards.

Adam

[Adam]

Sorry for hijacking your thread INXS, I just thought that our problems seem to be similar and it would be best to keep it all in one thread. I hope you don't mind.

Adam

[INXS]

Adam
no prob about hijack. Thanks for contributing.
It is helpful when you hear that some problem you are having is not totally uncommon as you realize that you are not totally screwing up .

I Want to thank everyone who has contributed, Telnes, Mac, Mindy, Tom, macaquatic and of course Adam&Eve.

To address some of the issues:

- I am with Adam and don't suspect a disease as there have been no introductions in the tank for almost 2 years and there was never a disease problem in that tank - ever. I think the colony may have gone through Metronidazole treatment waaay back and none of the adults are showing any problems.

-I am and have been using the tapwater for that tank and almost all others without problems - I'm just saying that I would suspect to see probems of a similar kind in other tanks that get bigger waterchanges if there was a problem with the water, no?

-as mentioned some of the fry actually went into shock when water was drawn out from the tank, the only thing that really changed then was the turbidity and would that really cause a problem for zebras?

- The one older fry seems to have adjusted and the last few changes he doesn't spasm - it appears to be something affecting mostly the young. I have also heard of people having trouble when transfering young zebras to other tanks like selling them off at 1-1.5" size. It appears that young zebras are more sensative.

-The problem is that you need to feed the young and have plenty of food in the tank. At that rate the Nitrate concentration goes up and waterchanges are a MUST, preferably large ones but now it seems that something like that is not an option.

-I am sticking with what Adam and others have discovered and must say the results have been the best - by doing 10% daily.
Maybe the waterchanges need to be built up slowly over a long time?

Anyway, I wish you all the best Adam and hang in there - I have been going through pretty much the same over the last few weeks and lost several from the waterchanges so good luck and may we soon find a solution.

[Barbie]

I actually haven't contributed to this one because I'm not sure what information is actually going to help you . If just lowering the water level is killing them, I really wouldn't attribute that to causing the problem. Knocking sick or weakened fry loose so you see them, yes, but not causing any real "stress" factor, IMO. I regularly do my rainy season changes with fry from both the zebras and queen arabesques in the tank with no problems. The Ancistrus in the house have been known to have 80% water changes when I'm temporarily maxing out a tank for bioload (ok, well, yeah, so pretty often!). I know that tap water parameters can vary greatly from place to place, but this is a problem you're seeing before you add the fresh water, so that can't be the source of the losses, no?

What are you guys feeding the fry? This is basically how the fry acted that I lost that had choked. There was nothing I could do for the 3 that were still alive but on their last legs. They were just too weak to grip and got blown around and spun out of control. I think all of that behavior is more a symptom of them being weak than a specific problem, but again, that's just my guesstimate. I stick the fry in my little condos so I can focus food to them, not leave them loose in the tank. Is that the only thing that's really different here?

I'm so sorry to hear you're having losses too Adam. I've been there, been that disgusted and upset. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I had the L260 fry to use as crash test dummies but it really hurts to see those wee stripey guys on their way out .

Barbie

[alga]

I too have had the 3/4 week die off with some of the fry. I personally attribute it to not enough food. The reason I say this is that I had a batch that the male "kicked out" several of the young fry, like the 3rd picture in the header. I scooped them and raised them, in a breeder trap in the parents tank and they did fine. The ones left in the tank with the parents went through the die off.

One of the ones that died I scooped out to examine, it appeared to have 4 small sinking pellets in its stomach. Maybe not starving? Not choking? Backed up?

All I know is the ones I separate don't do the die off and they are in with the parents.....