Neon Tetra disease.

[Adam]

Hi guys,

I currently have a major problem with Neon tetra disease in my community tank, it's absolutely decimating my shoal of cardinals. I have lost 60+ fish so far and it doesn't seem to be letting up. I've yet to dose the tank with any treatments for fear of harming the few zebras that are in there. I've sort of resigned myself to losing my shoal of cardinals as this disease is generaly not treatable. No new fish have been added to the tank so the only explanation I have is that it has been introduced to the tank via frozen food.

In an attempt to beat the disease I have been carrying out 60% daily water changes and destroying any fish showing any symptoms. This worked to some degree the last time I had this problem, I again suspected frozen food but I wasn't sure as there had been some new additions to the tank.

I would appreciate some advice as I would like to dose the tank with protozin. What effects will this have on the zebras if any, there are also some clown loahes in the tank. Has any one got any experience with this disease? Is there anything else I should consider?

It's almost certain that I will lose all the cardinals, 400+ fish. Luckily Neon tetra disease doesn't affect non tetra species, the rest of the tank inhabitants are totally unaffected.

[Adam]

My shoal of Cardinals is fast disappearing, since Friday I have lost 150 of them. Any advice anyone? I've got to the stage where I'll consider almost anything.

[Tristan]

Adam,
I would try protozin as i have used it on my discus whilst i have had plecs in the tank with no adverse effects.

Below is waht rob said to me regarding protozin and zebbies

"Protozin is a good broad spectrum treatment which contains copper. This means that you cannot treat scaleless fish with it.

In an ideal world, you don't really want to treat your fisn (in my opinion) wih any medication. Athough we all know that this is not always possible. Quite often a series of good water changes and a slight increase in temperature can suffice. As far as using protizin on the zebras, I'm not aware that it woulca cause a major problem, although to be on the safe side, I would steer clear of it. The other option is Myxazin, which is not copper based. it is also a broad spectrum treatement, but a little "gentler" on the fish."

If you are going to lose 500 cardinals i would remove the zebras to another tank as tha shoal must cost £600 to replace and treat the cardinals.

Hope this is of some help.
Tristan

[Adam]

Thanks for the advice Tristan,

I took a day off work today to try and sort this problem out. The zebras and the clown loach have been taken out of the tank since yesterday morning and I have already treated the tank with protazin following an 80% water change. However the NTD doesn't appear to be letting up, it's probably too early to tell yet. This time round it seems to have got a real foot hold.

Your right about the cost of the Cardinals, this is the second time this has happened the last time was about 2 years ago that time I lost about 40% of the shoal.

I've had it with Cardinals , I doubt if I will replace them this time. Any ideas on a nice hardy shoaling fish? I have about 40 Rasbora hengeli but they don't have the same impact as Cardinals.

[Tristan]

Things are looking bad. Sorry to hear about your losses so far. I had some hengali for a while, until the discus ate them. It is difficult to find a nicer shoaling fish than the cardinal or neon. Many of the tetras are too transparent or just silver. Hmmmm. i will put some thought into it.

[Rob]

Adam

How are things with the cardinals. From what I know of Neon tetra disease, once it has hold, it is difficult to stop. Protozin is probably your best bet, good idea to take the loaches out as there skin is a little too sensitive to high dosages of Protozin.

Have you upped the temp a little?

Good luck

rob

[Adam]

I'm afraid the NTD has got a hold in the Hengeli as well, I just fished out the first fatality about 10 minutes ago. There was me thinking that the rest of the fish should be ok. Done a search on the net and found that rasboras and barbs are also susceptible. So it looks like both the Hengeli and the 5 Denosonii barbs are also at risk. As for the Cardinals they are still dropping off like flies.

I can't understand where the NTD has come from the last introduction of fish was 3 months ago but they spent 2 months in quarantine first. I don't take any chances since the last out break of NTD 2 years ago. Every tank has its own equipment, nets, siphons etc. I'm very careful at ensuring that cross infection doesn't occur. That's why the only possible explanation that I can offer is that the infection must have been introduced when feeding frozen food.

[DANthirty]

Hi Adam
sorry to hear the bad news, what are the sighns of NTD, to be honest ive never heard off it before you mentioned it , i was just wondering as i have over 40 cardinals in my tank.

i hope the zebbys are ok

[Des]

Adam,
Hi, sorry to hear of your problems. Had a lof off experiences with various diseases but never ntd.However a broad spectrum treatment that I have used , namely ESHA 2000 which claims to treat over 18 symptoms and disease organisms.It does say on the box that it treats ntd.It would defintely be worth a try.
I now quarantine all new tropical fish including plecs including my zebbies using a single dose of a pond treatment, Tetra Medifin ,which is both a bacteriacide and protocide,which contains formaldehyde and copper oxalate, I believe. Please note, I use at my risk, since it is not a tropical fish treatment.I have not seen any ill effects. I have also used it in my planted tanks and even the Amano shrimp have come through the treatment.
I was at Wholesale tropicals on Sunday, Terry Junior remembered you.
Talking about shoaling fish , I bought a dozen Diamond neon Tetras.The front of the body is irridescent. They were £1.25 each, very pretty too.
I also bought some Red pencils (nanostomus mortenhaleri)but at £8 each, will wait for them to breed before I get a shoal!!!!
Regards,
Des.

[Adam]

Hi Dan,

NTD is caused by a parasitic sporozoa, the link below gives more information on the disease.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disea ... isease.htm

These are the syptoms of NTD, also known as saddle back disease.

Affected fish will stop eating and start to separate themselves from the rest of the shoal this is also often coupled with erratic swimming, no outward signs of the disease usually shows at this stage. The affected fish will then start to lose colour around the dorsal or mouth area, in advanced cases these arears can become completely white. Some fish can die of NTD without showing any visible signs of the disease, I've found that these tend to be young fish as they seem to succumb to the disease long before showing visible symptoms.

NTD affects the following species: Neons, Cardinals, Rasboras, Barbs, Angels and Rummy nose tetras. All other species, including tetras, appear to be resistant to it. The spores of the sporozoa that cause NTD can lay dormant for up to 2 months and when accidently ingested cause an outbreak.

The most effective action I have found against NTD is the destruction of any fish showing any signs of the disease and large daily water changes. You can use a broad spectrum water treatment but on the whole they are ineffective. I have heard that Formaldehyde is effective at treating NTD, however the dose that is required is not tolerated well by the already weakend fish.

[DANthirty]

Thanks Adam, now i know what too look out for,

what size tank did you have them all in?

[Adam]

Thanks for the advice Des,

I think I will use a malachite and fomaldehyde mixture, this is a very effective treatment I often used when I kept koi. At the rate that the fish are dying I have nothing to lose, I'll try a 50% dose on a few fish first to see how they get on.

I have put the 5 Denosonii barbs in quarantine, at £16 each they will be costly to replace and they are hard to come by. Another wild caught fish that is endangered in it's wild habitat. A shoal of these may be quite impressive, what do you think Des? Mind you I will have to look for a cheaper source, I think Trimar do them for £10 each. Here's a link for more information on the barbs:

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/Fishin ... isonii.htm

Dan the Cardinals are in a 52"x20"x20" tank filtered by 2 Eheim external canister filters, a 2217 and 2128.

[Tom26000]

Hi Adam,

NTD is a really tough one!! I have experienced it once and it destroyed my shoal of 30 cardinals, which had been thriving for over two years, in just a couple of weeks.

I think you problem now is that you have already started to treat. To add more chemicals will probably make matters worse . BUT like you said, you have nothing to lose. I hope you can at least halt the NTD progress.

Regards

Tom

[Adam]

Hi Tom,

This is the second time I've encountered NTD, I think the first time I got lucky and managed to some how stop it or it just ran it's course. I don't think luck is on my side this time as the death rate is much higher. I may have had false NTD last time, apparently the symptoms are similar but it responds more readily to treatment.

I'll do a large water change before dosing with any new medication, hopefully this should dilute the Protozin sufficiently.

[Des]

Adam,
I believe there are 2 types of dennisoni barbs. one with the red line only Half the body length and the other ,approx three quarter the body length. I have seen shoals of these barbs in various lfs, but some had a lot of colour and some hardly any. If I were you, I would actually handpick the best specimens at a lfs rather than mail order.
Wholesale Tropicals had some the last time I was there. Cant remember the price.
I was at a lfs in a garden centre in Godstone, Bletchingley rd, recently, they had approx 5 of the "first" variety but had the best colouring I have seen both on the red and yellow and were approx 2.5 to 3", priced @ £12.They were due to have some more in ,soon. I bought some largish Altums from them.
By the way I also found out at this lfs that Sera make A treatment especially for NTD. The name sounded like Plistora
I also think fishcrazy.com had the Dennisoni barbs on their list.If they are, they are located near you, somewhere in Hertfordshire.
Regards,
Des