To pull the fry or not

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McEve
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To pull the fry or not

Post by McEve »

I'm not sure if we've discussed this before, please bear with me or refer me to the thread in question if we have.

I was just wondering. It's very hard to find captive bred Angels that will look after the fry now. The reason for this is that they have been commercially raised over several generation, and never or rarely been allowed to raise the fry themselves. This is to make sure as many as possible survive ofcourse, and also to make them spawn again asap.

I was wondering if there's a danger of this happening to the Zebra as well, as I know many take the fry and raise them in a fry trap when they're about 5 days old wrigglers.

Would we run the risk of the Zebra "forgetting" how to raise fry, and end up *having* to pull them, as contrary today, when we can choose? Is this something to consider or would catfish be different from cichlids?

Any comparative experience with other catfish out there regarding this yet?
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Post by Robbert »

Interesting topic I must say... I don't think it will be a problem. I know several people that breed for instance BN pleco's. Most of them are not wildcaught but raised in tanks.. separated from the male after laying. Also these offspring breed in a natural way. So I don't think (but not 100% sure) that there will be problems when trying to breed with non wildcaught animals, in contrast to for instance tropheus or several other african cichlids.

this is just my opinion.. correct me if I'm wrong ;)
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Post by inia »

Somewhere in the future this may become a problem. Think, if you buy a wildborn pair of angels and take their eggs away, the following generation can surely take care of their babies. But when we go on few generations and raise them all commercially, we have a problem, -like now with angels.

I've decided, that I always let the father zebra to look after the young. How can we people really know what they are doing, (for example) during the night? I've noticed that father zebras face and neck are kind of "eaten pale" when he finally lets the babies out from the cave. Do the baby zebras get some kind of nutrition from the father? Some kind of useful antibodies, maybe? I must tell, I've ever lost a baby zebra, rised up by its father.
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Post by McEve »

inia wrote: I've noticed that father zebras face and neck are kind of "eaten pale" when he finally lets the babies out from the cave. Do the baby zebras get some kind of nutrition from the father? Some kind of useful antibodies, maybe?
That's a very interesting observation, and hypothesis. Have anybody else noticed this? have an opinion on this?

I have previously stated that I noticed the fry I leave with the group are growing much faster than the ones kept separat... Part from that, since they have such an extensive nursing of fry, we don't really know what repercussions it will cause in the long term if interrupted?

Robbert, nobody can correct you until a few years if at all necessary, that's what concerns me a bit, if this is an issue we won't know until a few years.

Maybe BN can be used as a guide of what to expect, even though they are a completely different genus, they are still the same family
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Post by NetsuaiAngel »

Hmm...very good topic.

Very good observation about the father's face being pale in places.

Keep up the theories everyone :)
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Post by Mindy »

I have hand reared birds, and though I have not bred from them, I have read that they may not be the most reliable parents when the time comes for them to raise their own young. As I said, I have not tested this theory, but there must be a school of thought along these lines for this information to be circulating.

If the same is true for Angels, then it seems to follow, logically, that hand rearing may eventually override an animals instincts to raise their offspring. Though I can't prove any of this. I'm just musing aloud.

I had intended to leave my fry with the dad, but he abandoned them so I had no choice but to raise them myself. But the next time they spawn, I will again leave them with their dad and hope he doesn't abandon them this time. I feel sure that there are all kinds of benefits to being raised naturally - proper nutrition and a comfy, protected environment (meaning less stress for the babies and perhaps, therefore, better development) being just two of them.
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Post by McEve »

The most successful breeder of Zebras in Norway never pull the fry. He's got 200 +- in two years, from two males. He only catch the fry and move them when it gets crowded in the breeding tank.

As he gets this many, I wonder if it's really necessary to pull the fry, and if leaving them might be more beneficial.

Sorry about dragging this issue up again, but it's now we can do something about forming habits :)

What are the reasons for pulling the fry?
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Post by NetsuaiAngel »

Fear of losing any zebra babies...?

Just guessing...
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Post by Shell231 »

I think he is right and " greed " to cash in on them wrong i know but it is and will be on alot of peoples minds

When and if my spawn i will just leave them in there if i lose them it is part of the natural learning curve for the zebras, and like you say McEve if we set a habit for them now in furture we could get more spawns being successfully raised with out human interference. :):) which would be a fabtastic goal to try a reach.
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Post by alga »

When I got my zebra's in late June I got in contact with someone who was also breeding and his best advice was for me to "sit on my hands". As hard as it is to do, the babies grow faster and now with the second spawn going I have still done nothing,.....its actually............relaxing. :shock: :shock:

I owe everything to contacts made through great sites like this one!!! :D :D
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Post by McEve »

So... if the only reason for pulling the fry i not to loose any, then lets look at that.

The person I told you about that had 200+- fry in two years never interfered, and he got two snubnnoses out of the 200. That's 1%. They were bred in normal caves.

Under the sales and wants section I've already seen, and rightfully so, warnings to people wishing to buy F1's, to make sure they get healthy fry with no deformitites. This shows that there are a few of them around...

So I wonder, maybe the male will do the culling if the fry has any disfigurment, so ok - you loose some. But do we want disfigured fry to grow up and end up on the market, being sold for high prices to people that don't know - ending up with useless Zebras if they want to breed them later on?

Will this benefit the captive Zebra population?

I can understand the dilemma faced by a breeder that pulled the fry on day 5, when they get to be two months old and he discovers that there are snubnoses or other disfigurments on some of the fry. Does he pretend like nothing and sell them, does he sell them at a discount or will he be able to bring himself to cull them?

The question still remains, as cruel as it might seem, do we want the disfigured fish on the market, to be sold from one buyer to the next and the next, maybe without the warning of a disfigurment following the fish?

Difficult questions to answer....

I believe the male, under normal circumstanses would cull the disfigured fry. Maybe that's for the best? The breeder mentioned earlier proves that you can still get a fair amount of fry once they start breeding, even when leaving them alone, and..... 1% snubnoses aren't all that bad.
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Post by alga »

The males job is many fold, I would assume up to and including culling deformed fry. I know an angelfish breeder who noticed the parents eating the fry. He removed the fry and artificaially raised them. I don't remember the exact numbers but from what he saved only a few appeared "normal".

I personally am letting the male do all the work and am sitting back and waiting for more of the fry to venture out of the cave. :D
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Post by Shell231 »

This thread has just cleared it up totally in my mind what i am going to do. Thanks McEve for bringing it up :)
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Post by khblock »

While researching I came across this thread and though its an old topic I decided to add my two cents.

I raise discus, angelfish, rainbowfish, killies, halfmoon bettas, bn plecos and as of today zebras (yeah) :D :D. So far I see three babies.

All my fish are captive bred with the exception of my zebras. The angelfish and discus take care of their young. Although it took several spawns for my discus to stop eating their fry. :cry: Young discus will accidentally eat fry while mouthing them.

I was concerned with my first angel spawn. I decided to run an experiment. I took half the angel young and let the remaining stay with their parents. There were so many I didn't know what I would do if they all survived. The young who were raised with their parents grew a lot faster. To my surprise, the angelfish took very good care of the young. I can't let my discus fry stay with the parents past a few days of free swimming because the will strip the flesh from their parents. For those who don't know discus feed their young by secreting food. I've heard angelfish will do the same but have not witnessed it.

My bn plecos and did the same. They had a large spawn and threw out 20% albino. The runts died but I still have close to 20 from the same spawn.

I let my male bettas care for the fry until they are about three weeks old. I take the female out because he will kill her trying to protect the young.

Rainbowfish & killies spawn in a mop and I hatch them separately. Rainbowfish will eat their own. I've seen rainbow fish spawn just to snack on the eggs. :x

This is my first spawn with the zebras. It’s taken me 1.5 years. Thanks to the good folks in this forum. Two of the babies look like they still have an egg sack bulge but have come out of the cave. I can see one more inside the cave but didn’t want to disturb the male too much. I was wondering if this was too soon.
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Post by LyreTail »

I heard one notation that some species of Apistogramma eat their fry if it gets too dark in their tank at night and the suggestion was to leave a small light on them, replicating the moon light. I have been running experiments on Rams and Angel fish to see if this makes a difference. I had much better luck with a very young set of Koi Angels which raised fry to free swimming, before I pulled the fry from the community tank ( 2nd spawn ever for the pair) and no luck yet with the Rams. So far it looks like giving the fish some ability to defend their territory 24 hours per day is needed, but not conclusive. I will continue to see if I can get my Blue Rams to rear a set of young using this trick. Both of these fish do much better in a planted tank with rearing young, so that may also be another factor.

I have thought a lot about the "captive bred loosing ability to rear young" theory and it just does not hold up with certain fish. For example some highly captive bred fish have never lost the ability to rear their young. It does makes sense to hypothesize that fry not reared by parents will have less "memory" of how to do it themselves, yet I pulled Kribs eggs and reared the young myself and believe me, they never skipped a beat. 8 months later and they were digging pits and rearing young even though I never gave them a cave. I have pulled Apistogramma Cacatoides (triple red ) eggs and the same result with the offspring. They seem to know exactly what to do and were successful on first or second try which is normal. Now I know people might say " well you only pulled the eggs one time, but Angels have been captive bred for many decades this way."
My answer to that, is that fish are not really the smartest animals on the earth and I can't imagine many different generations being any different from a single stripped generation. However I do not wish to decry the theory at all. It might have some valid basis and I am open to it.

I also notice Angles and Rams really freak out when some eggs get fungus on them. This seems to be when they abort the bunch more often than not. To me they look a bit clumsy trying to cull the fungus eggs.

I would like to stress the fact that "F1" does not mean fry from wild caught parents. It just means that the fry's parents were not siblings. It is a method for tracking inbreeding, not a method for tracking generations from wild caught fish. I think the Filial generation tag is misused in fish keeping often and this creates unnecessary confusion
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