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Ok Guys

I have spent the past 30 mins trying to join the german forum, but have failed miserabley. I never should have taken french standard grade.

Anyway, after using a little german translator, I have sent the site administrator an e-mail asking if he would like to participate in the discussion. we will just need to wait and see. Failing that I will try and put the topic of the discussion through the translator.

Cheers for this everyone, it has been a very enjoyable and entertaining evening!! I really must get this chatroom set up!!

Rob

I don't think anbody speaks English in the administration of the www.L46.de forum. I was warned about that by somebody who said he knew.

Don't you know somebody who speaks German that could get in touch with them Rob?

It's cool, I sent the message in german. Not sure how good it has turned out, but we will wait and see. Hopefully he will put a post in the forum and anyone that speaks english will join in.

Cheers

Rob

Ok then, great!

It will be very interesting to see what they have to say about this

Thank you all for the warm welcome, both here and in my personal inbox.
The number of people who read the article I wrote so many years ago now (it seems) continues to amaze me. I should probably go find it again myself and see how many foolish things I said.

It seems a standard habit to pull the zebra eggs/fry before the male completes his entire guarding cycle. During the time he does have with the eggs/fry, he cleans them, rotates them...and even eats a couple. I forgot to mention in my last post that I have never seen a "bulldog" appear from a batch that the male has had complete control over...for the duration. That might very well explain why we never see them imported....????

Did someone just cheer for natural childbirth?

Kevin Korotev

SO you are saying that the male lieks the taste of the bulldogs?;)
I wonder how they can even TELL.

This would certainly ring true from my experience. The "mishsaped" fry hatched from an egg that had already been kicked out of the cave.

Since, then I have had no other mutations. ALthough I have had several spawns removed from a particular male due to his inability to tend to them successfully.

ED_R

none of my three spawns were left with the male for the entire duration. I don't have a any bulldogs.

I do however cheer for natural childbirth now, I panicked, that's why I took them

Next time I will leave him alone, and won't point an IR-camera into his cave either! I lost the last batch due to my..... curiosity

It's sad to know that some ??? Company actually sell the deformed fish... in the real world

That's really a rip off... Whoever it is, they thought they can get away with it... Sad...

I have to admit that none of my 16 baby zebra plecos exhibit the "bulldog" affect. I wish I still had my breeders to know if they would produce them. I had had my breeders for 1 1/2 years when they first spawned. It took them another 2 years before they started up again. I never noticed any fry with deformities. So who knows?

I would certainly contact the person that sold you those fish and figure out where they came from. Are they wild fish to begin with? If so, then perhaps that person may look at how he or she is raising them. Certainly let them know about the fish, perhaps they do not even know they are raising deformed fish. It would be interesting to hear feedback about their setup and conditions.

~Jeremy Basch

While we wait to hear from the guys in Germany..... It would be interesting to hear what you all think should be done when a bulldog is born.

Should it be culled? Or should it be sold at a reduced price, together with information to the buyer that the fish should not be used for breeding, but will be perfectly capable of living a long life as an ornamental fish. Or other?

I'm kinda dreading the dilemma if I get one...

I admit, it's a hell of a dilema. The problem as I see it is whether or not we "contribute to it happening". We are only a handful of enthusiast trying to breed these beautiful but expensive fish. I guarentee, unlike everyone on this forum, there will be alot of people, like we have just seen, who will sell these fish whatever!!

Peronsally I would prefer either not to sell them, for if I did how do you guarentee they will not be used as breeding stock. As yet I have not heard of anyone neutering a fish!!!

I think this question can only be answered after careful consideration of what the facts actually are...i.e. genetic or environmental.....

I have a german translation program, that Iw ill look into the other forum.. I'm working away for a few days next week, but I'll hopfully have it done by next thursday.......

until then......

I think that if you sella bulldog you sell it to someone you KNOW will not be breeding it, and you sell them one or two at a time, or a small group of all the same genders. If you're worrie,d that is.
The thing ois that the bulldogs will probably breed as normal and more than half their spawn will probably be normal too. It just makes the bulldog gene a bit less reccesed.

The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the snub-nose effect is environmental. I decided to (without any prejudice) discuss the matter with my own personal pleco guru: Janne Ekstrom. If you've ever been to Planet Catfish, you'll recognize the name. Here is his unedited response:

..."When it comes to the deformation of the snout, I am almost totally sure it depends on a hatch problem...it happens when you take the eggs from the male and hatch them artificial.
Normally the male helps the fry out of the egg through shewing on them so the shell crack...if you have taking eggs out and hatch them artificial you have noticed that some fry have very difficult to hatch...to get out of the shell. Most fry from other fish species are much more developed and stronger when they hatch but when it comes to these catfishes they are very undeveloped and with a very heavy yolk sac...fry's use the head to crack the shell and that is the only way if they not are helped to be born.
I always let the males care for the eggs until they hatch and then I empty the cave and it's very rare that my fry's have a snoat deformation.
I think (feel sure) that these deformation will not be genetic and if you breed them...the offspring will be normal.I think you understand what I mean...my english is not enough good to explain exactly with the right words and if you want to use my information it's not any problem for me...feel free to include it in your post."

I believe this to be about the best and most factual answer we could hope for...until proven otherwise.

Kevin