Is this fin rot??

valhallan · Post by **valhallan** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 4:47 am

I need some help

I posted pictures a few days ago of my zeb with red and torn up fins. I thought it was getting better until I took a good look at him today.

Can anyone tell me what this is? Is it just common fin rot? I have moved both him and my other sub adult (on the right in the second pic) to their own tank and want to try and treat whatever this is. I was going to start with Melafix, unless somebody recommends something else. As you can see, the pectoral bone is showing clearly and there is a lot of redness where there is actually flesh left. There is also what appears to be a blood blister or something on his underside where the right pecotral meets the body which I couldn't get a pic of. All of his fins are now looking chewed up. His anal fins look terrible compared with the other zeb, and his caudal and dorsal fin aren't looking great either. The thing that gets me is, this guy is eating like a pig! If it weren't for his appearance, you wouldn't think anything was wrong with him at all. The other zeb looks absolutely fine, not a mark on it at all.

Val

Mindy · Post by **Mindy** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:49 am

I am unsure of what medications/treatments zebs will tolerate, so I won't suggest anything, I'll leave that for someone who knows.

But generally, I find that just good quality water helps most things. If he's active and feeding then he must'nt be feeling TOO bad. If he's not fungusing, then I would guess the wounds are healthy enough and would heal on their own with just clean water. When I got my two from the shop, they had chewed fins from being in a tank of Serpae Tetras, but they healed up very quickly when I got them, and I didn't do anything at all. But then, they weren't chewed to the bone either... I will be interested to see other's opinions on this.

Post by **Barbie** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:59 am

That doesn't look like fin rot to me, more like damage from fighting. If he was mine, I'd net him, lift him out of the water and swab the areas with iodine. Keep the water changes done daily for a bit and maybe add melafix or some other antibacterial agent. I'm assuming your water parameters are good with no ammonia or nitrite present and no sudden shifts in pH?

Especially if this injured zebra has been in the "prime" cave, it would explain his appearance and the lack of any injury on the other one. You might consider a divider until he's healed.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:47 am

I knew I'd seen this before, but finding things is getting harder, naturally. But I found it! Here's about other Zebras with the same kind of damage:

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... ight=#2857

Wonder why it sometimes developes in such a nasty way, while other times the reddening just disappears. Popeye the sailor forearms were seriously red, but it went away by itself, I didn't think the red was as pronounced on your fish val, still it developed into nasty

Sorry, just thinking out aloud. I hope he gets better soon!

valhallan · Post by **valhallan** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 6:38 pm

Thanks for your replies and tips

There is some fungusing of the area around the pectoral bone, it's not so easy to see in the pictures but it's there. The fungus isn't quite as bad as the example of Rob's from the other thread, but apart from that, it seems to be the same kind of thing. Barbie, how do I use the iodine? Should I swab all of the areas where there seems to be some fin loss ie. all of his fins? Or should I just swab the pectorals because they are the worst affected?

The water parameters have not changed since the first day I noticed the reddening of the fins, and I have done 2 water changes since then, with the same water I use for all my changes (RO/Tap 70/30). He was in the best spot in the tank, but I'd never seen the other one giving him any trouble. They've both been moved out of that tank now though, I hope that wasn't a mistake. I didn't want to treat the tank with fry in it.

I didn't think too much of it either McEve. It didn't look as bad as Popeye the sailor forearms' did, so I just expected it to go away as well. I'm just kicking myself now that I didn't pay closer attention through the week.

Val

Post by **Barbie** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 7:19 pm

Val don't kick yourself, they can do that much damage in a matter of hours. It just happens. It's not nearly as much damage as my male that got "skinned" so don't panic, he should be fine. You just have to keep him from getting any secondary bacterial infections at this point. You just swab the iodine on the affected areas, keeping clear of the eyes and gills. It sounds tough, but it's really more scary than difficult (other than needing that third hand at times

). I buy big bottles of iodine at livestock places for using like this. It works great. I have a friend that uses an eye dropper and just drops it onto the site it's needed on. He then rinses the fish in a container with tank water before he puts him back in the main tank to keep from od'ing the tank water.

I'd say there's definitely nothing wrong with them other than battling. Good luck with that. I ended up having to separate the one subdominant male. He wouldn't just give up the cave the big male insisted on inspecting and took more beatings than I was prepared to make him keep dealing with. I hear it's not normal for males to constantly cave swap like mine does though. I take the back off my caves to get the fry out and he seems to think the other caves might be safer for a bit. He always goes back to the same cave to spawn though.

Barbie

Des · Post by **Des** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:44 pm

Vallhallan,

I too, believe that the damage is due to fighting, but with who? is the question as it appears to be a female ( cannot be certain though), which dont scrap as bad as the males. Your other zebra looks to be a male.
I have never used Iodine , though I would use that as Barbie stated, including some bacteriacide (to prevent further derioration of the affected area)in the tank, something like Myxazin by Waterlife.This is a UK based product, I don't know whether it is available in the US. I have used this on wounds directly too, as well as being added to the tank. (Protozin from the same company would be used for fungus).

Regards,
Des

valhallan · Post by **valhallan** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 2:56 am

I just got done swabbing him with iodine. The poor thing was yellow from his pectorals to his tale when I was done

He seems to be doing okay now that he's back in the tank. Obviously a little traumatized, but none the worse for wear.

How should I do the Melafix/water change thing? A full Melafix treament is supposedly daily doses for a week with no water changes, but some of you have suggested that I change the water daily. Should I re-add the Melafix that I take out with the changes, or just go ahead with the regular treatment as if there were no changes being done?

Barbie, I've also found that livestock places are a great source for a lot of obscure fish related stuff. I've picked up a few cattle and sheep dewormers at my local feed store that worked great for my discus. They're usually also a lot cheaper than anywhere else. I've added some extra caves to their new tank in the hopes that they will settle down some. I know that this won't help if there turns out to be one "prime" spot, but it's worth a try.

Des, why do you think the torn up zeb is female? I'm interested because I've had a really hard time trying to sex these two and I figured they were too immature yet. The other zeb definitely has some odontal growth on its pectorals, but not so pronounced that I could say it was male. Also, neither of them seem to have substantial interopercular odontal growth at all. If anything, I was leaning toward them both being male. Although, I am not by any stretch of the imagination experienced with sexing these guys, I'm just going by what I've read. In the other tank I had them in, there were no real caves, just some stacks of slate and a few pieces of driftwood. The zeb that's all torn up claimed the closest thing to a cave that was in there, a spot at the very bottom of a pile of slate that was a pretty snug fit. This, more than anything, made me think that it was male. I would obviously be much happier if it turns out to be female though

Val

Post by **Barbie** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:30 am

IMO, they're both male, but I've been wrong before

. Behavior is a big key towards figuring out sexes also, I think. The fact that he was claiming a cave is definitely pointing to a male also.

I would just continue to dose the melafix at a regular dose daily after you do a 30% water change. Most medications advise you to keep adding the dosage daily without a water change, even though they are totally exhausted after a matter of hours. I've never understood that, and personally have much more success with the water changes and better water quality.

If you see any fuzz starting on the zebra tomorrow, you might have to reapply the iodine one more time. Once in awhile I have to do two treatments, but usually one is plenty.

As long as his appetite is good, he doesn't swell (my male had a few osmotic issues from all the damage), and the injuries don't fungus, he should heal to the point you can't tell he was injured in a few weeks.

Barbie

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:31 am

Hi Val

Definately a bit of a territorial dispute going on there, I would say 99% sure.!!

I have just finnished dealing with a feamle, (the same one in a previous thread that you mentioned) for the same problem again. It does make you feel Guilty I must admit, my female has lost a fair amount of her pecotial fins. I removed a spare male from the tank, which caused the two remaining females to re-assess their territories. As withmost species there is always an underdog that gets the brunt of the hasstle.

I possible, keep him in a breeder in the same tank for a few days to let the other fish establish a territory. This way, due to the fact only one fish is bady damaged, he will hopefully conceed and the fighting will stop.

Just keep up the water changes and do what your doing.

I can say don't feel guilty but I know it won't help, just take some consolation in the fact that it is nature!

Good luck

Rob

valhallan · Post by **valhallan** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:44 pm

Thanks for all your help everyone. I'm afraid it's a moot point now though. I found the poor fella dead this morning

Damn this sucks. At least if it ever happens again I'll be able to take care of it quicker, and hopefully I can avoid it.

Des · Post by **Des** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:18 pm

Valhallan,

Sorry to hear that you lost your zebra.
In answer to your question, the cheek whiskers look very short from the photograph and the leading pectoral fin spikes were short too, making me say it was a female. The "male" appears to have larger odontal growth in both areas.
Unfortunately from a picture it is difficult to say whether it was small or large fish, unless advised.

Des.

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:37 pm

I'm so sorry valhallan

This makes me wonder why some develop such a serious infection after fighting, this fish having had the same reddning of the fins as mine did.

Is this usual? Rob? you're probably the one here that have had Zebras the longest, and would have seen red fins many many times. Does it often happen that the infection gets as serious as this? Would it be wise to, as a precautionary rule, always take a zebra that display this signs (red pectorals) out of the group to a tank of it's own - just to be ready if it develops further?

Once again so sorry valhallan, none of us have any Zebras to loose

Post by **Barbie** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:59 am

I'm so very sorry Val

. He must have had other damage internally or a secondary bacterial infection got started that quickly. What a terrible loss. It's hard enough when I lose a fry, let alone one of the adults.

Barbie

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:38 am

Sorry to hear that val.

McEve, I have one female that is particularly prone to this problem, as previously discussed. She seems to be the only one that actually gets infection or even losses the tips of her fins/ tail. I think it is perely a case of dominancy. She is the smallest of the fish in the tank and is therefore an easy target. On the same note however she is certainly a spirited little fish, and refuses to give in!!!

As Barbie stated, it could well have been another problem, due to the injuries, that caused the fatality. I have been close to losing my female a few times. I feel this is most likely due to a reduction in immunity, and quite simply stress.

What other fish are in the tank, did you recently rearrange the decor in any way?

SOrry to hear this anyway Val, it really is a bit of a downer. Sorry we couldn't have been of more help.

Rob