They won't stop dying!!

If it isn't to late, and you're desperately looking for some advice, hopefully someone can help you out.

wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

They won't stop dying!!

Post by wandj »

8 Zebras dead all within a week.

Don't know what the heck is going on. All of a sudden they are dropping like flies and they are all residing in different tanks. Most tanks are healthy and happy, but a few I am having some weird stuff happening. I notice a dead fish in a tank that has many other healthy ones in it. In one tank, a nice big female was bloodier than hell. I thought she was attacked. From the dorsal fin down, the whole sides of her body was bloody. And her vent? Is that what it is called? It was bloody too. I thought I saw red streaks in some of her fin rays. Is this bacterial? Then why are all the other fish in the same tank ok? Or is the blood thing a post-mortem effect?
And I have lost 2 males that were also bloody the same way. One male was in a tank by himself and was still bloody. What the heck? And in the males also, the anus was bloody too. But the other fish in the tank are fine. That is, the tank that holds the male that was not by himself. I have also lost some Zebras that were just dead and no sign of any injury or diesease. What is your best guesses? I don't think it is a water issue as I do frequent water changes. Plus, I have many fish in other tanks that are fine. If it is a diesease, what do I do? How do I treat it? I don't want to lose any more!

PS. Temp in most of the tanks is about 84-86. My water parameters are the same as they always are....ok.

Thanks.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

You don't think it's a water issue, but have you tested your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels? pH can also be a factor. If you're feeding well and using soft water, your pH will crash and cause symptoms very like the ones you're describing. If I was losing zebras I'd have every test kit known to man out!

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

I tested nitrates and such. Very low.

I have a theory.

And Barbie, as usual, I think you're right.

I was reading one of my "fish diesease" books and read about alkadosis, and all that. My water is softened and it is very soft because I have a water softener. My pH is high....8.5. They have been fine in that for months until now. BUT, I have mentioned this before....but the water coming out of the tap is 7.6. I know this does not make sense, but last night I put a Milwalkie pH meter in a fresh glass of my tap water. (I am on well water so I have no chlorine, etc). Last night fresh out of the tap it was pH7.5. I looked at it just now, which would be 8 hours later, and the pH has already risen to pH 7.91. All my tanks are at 8.5. I am sure it will eventually rise to 8.5. Most tanks are bare and have little decor so nothing is giving off any chemicals.
I know I just cleaned my filters and did water changes, so maybe this is all a factor. Maybe some fish didn't handle the swings. I don't think they are eating well because it looks like they don't touch the food....which causes a problem too. And yet, many of my other tanks, the Zebras eat like pigs. So it is true that a fish can look like it went 10 rounds with a boxer with the blood? I noticed the blood is in the fin rays, so it's not just surface blood. And it's only on the back half of the fish. No blood on the pec fins. So I think I have it figured out. Have to be very careful. AND, I also read not to turn your filters on and off. I sometimes did this so that the current did not stir up and suck up the food. That is also a no-no because the bacteria die in the filter, the crap in there rots, and when you turn it on, it's like a poison blast. So that is another thing to do.....don't turn the filters on and off. I did that on a couple of tanks, but not all those had the problem.

Hmm.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

Nitrates and such very low? Did you have any readings for ammonia or nitrite? What are the exact numbers?

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
sid
Obsessed!!
Posts: 196
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2004 4:39 pm
Location: up the road fae rob
Contact:

Post by sid »

Sounds like your water company have been fiddling with your supply..maybe working on the mains ...........as they add nasties to clean the pipes after working on them ...............you did a water change on your tanks and he presto .disaster struck..makes sence in my eyes
sid...........perfection dont come easy ,but i get by
User avatar
KenW
Obsessed!!
Posts: 187
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 2:36 am
Location: Texas, USA

Post by KenW »

Here's something to think about on your well water. A lot of well water will have CO2 dissolved in the water which causes the pH to read low initially. As the CO2 is gassed off the pH will rise. Another thing to check for is heavy metals in the well water. You may want to check the well water for metals and chemicals routinely just to be on the safe side. In the future you may want to age your water before performing a water change if you don't already do that. You may choose to use neutral buffers/regulators to stabilize at 7.
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

Just looked at the pH meter in the glass again. Almost 24 hours since I started it. I started at 7.5 right? Now it is 8.25. Too bad it will not stay at pH 7.5. That would be so nice. I am on a water changer. I could do a water change 24 hours a day if I wanted....dripping it in. But I do a small change about twice a week. NEVER had a problem until now. I think the filters had something to do with it. I just wanted to know where all that blood came from. And I noticed some of them were breathing very very fast before dying a couple of days later. When I saw them gasping, I did water changes right away. And they were NOT gasping at the surface....just on the bottem where they were laying. And yet the other fish with them were not gasping. ??

I just went down and checked them all....all that I have left anyway. No more dead. All look fine now. None are breathing fast. They are all very calm now. So whatever it was, it's over now....I hope. It might be a combo of things. I think a bit of overfeeding. Not really, it's just that they don't eat as much as some of the Zebras in my other tanks. I also cleaned a few filters, but this was something I did after I lost a few. If I do any more water changes, I will dribble the water in slowly so they should not notice new water. I was just turning the tap on a bit too much maybe? I just want to know what exactly causes the blood.....is it the pH swing? Poison from the filters being turned on/off?

I think I will add more decor to my tanks so that it will disrupt the current from blowing the food around and into the filters. Some of the filters were pretty gross when I cleaned them. Dirtier than they should be as they were brand new ones I put in there just last month. (But all the tanks have sponge filters, so they already have bio-support).

Anyway, thanks all for the help. Let me know any more theories or advice you may have.
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

Oh yah.

I tried lowering my pH and such in the past. BAD IDEA!!

I tried a peat bag. Withing 4 days both the Zebras in that tank died. The pH did NOT budge by the way. My kH is too high. No matter what I do I cannot get the pH to lower. A friend of mine said maybe they died because the water got TOO soft.

I also tried to lower the pH by using "pH Down". Within 2 days I lost a nice big female. AND the pH did NOT go down. In fact, when I pulled out the dead fish, the pH was 8.7. (It was higher than it normally is!) I added at least 40 or more drops over the course of those 2 days and it didn't do a damn thing. Just killed my fish. My fish do just fine WHEN I LEAVE THEM ALONE!

Nothing makes sense sometimes. I have a 10gal tank with 3 Zebras and 4 ottos in it. By the time I suck the crap off the bottom, etc, about half the water is gone. 50% water change. And you know what? Time after time I do this, I replace that 50% with tap water (well) from my bathtub taps, and dump it right in. And they are just fine. Never lost any Zebras or any fish in there after this water change. I do this once a week on this 10 gal tank. They do not gasp or do not look stressed at all when I do this. So figure that one out.

Anyway, I'm not going to cook my brain anymore over this.

Thanks so much again everyone.
Tom2600
Obsessed!!
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:37 am
Location: East Yorkshire

Post by Tom2600 »

Very sorry to hear about you losing so many Zebras!

I have only seen the blood streaking you describe once on the zebras I use to have. It occured while I was moving house one time and they had to stay bagged up for nearly 8 hours!

I put this down to two possible problems. Ammonia spike in the bagged water and/or stress because of the move.

I would guess you have lost zebras because of a water quality problem.

i.e. ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spike and or a possible pollutant coming in from your water supply.

It sounds like you have overcome the problem though.

With regards to altering the water chemistry (pH GH KH etc). RO water is your best option. Just mix this with some tap water or alternatively you can add remineralisation salts (which I personally add to my RO). I would not recommend adding chemicals to try and alter chemistry. Your pH seems very high so could there be something in your tank/filter causing the increase?

Regards

Tom
Des
Mentally Certified!
Posts: 553
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 10:06 pm
Location: Surrey, England

Post by Des »

Wandj,

Sorry to hear of your losses. I realise that your problems might have been solved/gone away. But the issue is that if one cannot put ones finger on exactly what caused this , then it could happen again.
Do you feed frozen bloodworm ?. If so, some "bad" worms in a batch ( a pack that had got defrosed, gone off, and then refrozen, even before you got hold of it) may have been used inadvertently, which caused some sort of haemorragic reaction in the fish that ate the "bad worms. That is possibly the reason why only some fish may have been affected. Haemorraging like this is normally caused due to a bacterial infection within the fish.
Barbie has asked whether you tested for ammonia and nitrite. Did you ?.
Ammonia especially is highly toxic at higher Ph.

Regards,
Des.
Tom Kvitnes
Groupie
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 11:01 pm
Location: Bergen Norway

Post by Tom Kvitnes »

Very sorry to hear about your zebras.

But i dont think your losses has anyting to do with your PH, since you didnt have any suddenly big drops or any big increase in PH.

My zebras has lived for over a year at PH 8+, and there have been no problems, i have altso heard of other people having zebras for years at PH 8+.
But as des says it is dangerous if your ammonia level is high.

Regards

Tom
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

I couldn't find my Ammonia test kit. I could only find the NO3 one. And the Nitrate test was a very pale pink....according to the chart it was very low. I tested a few of the problem tanks. And I did big water changes so if there was ammonia, it would have gone down the drain. I think overall, it was an ammonia spike. I can't think of anything else. I was just surprised to see the bloody effect and wondered how common it was.

And for as long as I have had fish, I have always done a big water change without problems (when I neede to or for other reasons). In fact, one time a had a bad frozen food issue. I posted it here quite awhile ago. But anyway, any fish alive were gasping at the surface. Most were dead when I found them in this condition. It was in the morning and I had to go to work, so I did an emergency 80% water change. I had to call in to say I was going to be late. I did the huge water change and flew off to work. When I got home 12 hours later, all the fish were happy and frolicking about. So here I am again dumping in fresh tap water of 7.5 into 8.5 and it saved their lives and they were acting as if nothing had ever happened. So I agree that it was probably an ammonia problem or something and maybe the pH is not an issue at all.
Tom2600
Obsessed!!
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2004 1:37 am
Location: East Yorkshire

Post by Tom2600 »

If it was the ammonia spike, you should be able to trace the cause? i.e. have you missed a water change recently, or have you been over-feeding etc? I would be curious, like Des says, to try and find the cause because it goes without saying you don't want to be losing 8 zebras again!!

Goodluck and I hope whatever the cause (whether you find it or not) doesn't come back.
Adam
Moderator
Posts: 1604
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by Adam »

Hi Wandj,

Sorry to hear about your zebras :cry: .

As the others have said it looks like an ammonia spike may have been the cause. I doubt that an increase in PH could have such a rapid effect.
It's probably best to check over things throughly. I would especially check out your filters just to make sure that they are not blocked.

Good luck and let us know if you find out what happened.
wandj
Obsessed!!
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2004 6:48 pm
Location: Alberta, Canada

Post by wandj »

I don't think I'll ever find out what the heck. I have lost 2 more out of one last tank in the last few days. This time, they have no marks at all. Just dead on the bottom. Still a couple of them left with no signs of problems. My water parameters are fine. This is so weird. Just that last tank is acting weird. I notice that the ones that die in that tank lately are out in the open. They are not hiding. There is one out in the open right now, but looks fine and is alive. Why is this? They are all quite young and there are enought places to hide. I don't know.

Tired of this. Thought Zebras were tougher than this. Not even a signs of disease, etc. Maybe just stress from whatever the heck was bugging them.
Post Reply