L205 Not looking Too good....Need some Ideas!!
Hi Rob
I have only seen ulcers on koi but they are VERY nasty. They often arise from relatively small problems such as:
Temp. changes
Pressure sores
Burns etc.
From what I understand the bacteria kick in (I'm sorry I really have no idea if there are specific ulcer causing bacteria) and when the ulcer finally breaks it leaves a huge hole.
I could be way of the mark but its the only thing I have seen that is similar looking to what your poor catfish had.
Cheers
Tom
I have only seen ulcers on koi but they are VERY nasty. They often arise from relatively small problems such as:
Temp. changes
Pressure sores
Burns etc.
From what I understand the bacteria kick in (I'm sorry I really have no idea if there are specific ulcer causing bacteria) and when the ulcer finally breaks it leaves a huge hole.
I could be way of the mark but its the only thing I have seen that is similar looking to what your poor catfish had.
Cheers
Tom
The fishdoc has plenty of info on ulcers in koi:
http://ss034.fusionbot.com/cgi-bin/ss_q ... r=85049778
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/cases/ulcer%2001.htm
http://ss034.fusionbot.com/cgi-bin/ss_q ... r=85049778
http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/cases/ulcer%2001.htm
Hi Rob,
Sorry to hear about your plec, you definately did the right thing by putting it down.
I didn't want to say before but the symptoms that your plec displayed were starting to sound and look all too familiar the last picture confirmed it for me, Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia / Motile Aeromonas Septicemia. I'm pretty sure that it was caused by a gram-negative/positive aeromonas bacterial infection. The exact strain, there are several, can only be effectively isolated through lab analysis.
Being a former koi keeper I have seen this sort of thing before. Koi are particularly susceptible to this sort of bacterial infection shortly after coming out of hibernation. Whilst they are able to start feeding their immune response is still very low due to the hibernation period and water temperatures being still fairly low. However the bacteria responsible for this sort of infection are able to multiply to eperdemic proportions long before the koi are able to mount an effective immune response.
I use to treat for bacterial ulceration in the following way. The affected fish was immediately removed and placed in isolation, the tank temperature was then slowly raised to 25 degrees centigrade over the period of a week so that the fishes metabolism increased sufficiently to mount an immune response to the infection. During this time the fish was anaesthetised and the ulcerated region treated topically with a wound steriliser and water proof bactericidal ointment was applied. The vast majority of Koi I have treated in this way made a full recovery without any further intervention. The answer lies in knowing exactly when to intervene, however this is not always possible for ulcers that have formed on the underside of fish that have been lying at the bottom of a pond for months. I had a couple of koi that did not respond to this treatment and they required antibiotic injections to halt the infection. This was done only after swabs were taken to determine the antibiotic sensitivity of the strain of aeromonas causing the infection. Indiscriminate use of antibiotics will lead to resistant strains of bacteria and even super bacteria that are resistant to all known antibiotics.
Aeromonas bacteria are always present in healthy tanks/ponds they only become invasive when fish are exposed to the usual stress factors and are no longer able to mount an effective immune response.
Rob, personally I would look for the cause of the infection rather than trying to treat the symptoms. There is almost always a stress factor be it ailing water quality or injury that has tipped the scales in favour of the bacteria. If you really feel the need to medicate, Potassium Permanganate is a particularly good bacteriacide but is generally ineffective against viruses. However watch the dosage as it can do more harm than good as it is indiscriminate in the organic matter that it oxidises, gills can be easily damaged through overdosing/frequent use. Heavy oxygenation will be required during treatment as it lowers O2 levels. Also some species are less tolerant of this treatment and the dosage will have to be halved, Cichilids are one example. Watch your fingers too as they will be stained a nice deep brown colour and you'll end up looking like a 100 a day smoker.
Sorry for the long post but this is not a topic that can just be breezed over.
Regards
Adam
Sorry to hear about your plec, you definately did the right thing by putting it down.
I didn't want to say before but the symptoms that your plec displayed were starting to sound and look all too familiar the last picture confirmed it for me, Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia / Motile Aeromonas Septicemia. I'm pretty sure that it was caused by a gram-negative/positive aeromonas bacterial infection. The exact strain, there are several, can only be effectively isolated through lab analysis.
Being a former koi keeper I have seen this sort of thing before. Koi are particularly susceptible to this sort of bacterial infection shortly after coming out of hibernation. Whilst they are able to start feeding their immune response is still very low due to the hibernation period and water temperatures being still fairly low. However the bacteria responsible for this sort of infection are able to multiply to eperdemic proportions long before the koi are able to mount an effective immune response.
I use to treat for bacterial ulceration in the following way. The affected fish was immediately removed and placed in isolation, the tank temperature was then slowly raised to 25 degrees centigrade over the period of a week so that the fishes metabolism increased sufficiently to mount an immune response to the infection. During this time the fish was anaesthetised and the ulcerated region treated topically with a wound steriliser and water proof bactericidal ointment was applied. The vast majority of Koi I have treated in this way made a full recovery without any further intervention. The answer lies in knowing exactly when to intervene, however this is not always possible for ulcers that have formed on the underside of fish that have been lying at the bottom of a pond for months. I had a couple of koi that did not respond to this treatment and they required antibiotic injections to halt the infection. This was done only after swabs were taken to determine the antibiotic sensitivity of the strain of aeromonas causing the infection. Indiscriminate use of antibiotics will lead to resistant strains of bacteria and even super bacteria that are resistant to all known antibiotics.
Aeromonas bacteria are always present in healthy tanks/ponds they only become invasive when fish are exposed to the usual stress factors and are no longer able to mount an effective immune response.
Rob, personally I would look for the cause of the infection rather than trying to treat the symptoms. There is almost always a stress factor be it ailing water quality or injury that has tipped the scales in favour of the bacteria. If you really feel the need to medicate, Potassium Permanganate is a particularly good bacteriacide but is generally ineffective against viruses. However watch the dosage as it can do more harm than good as it is indiscriminate in the organic matter that it oxidises, gills can be easily damaged through overdosing/frequent use. Heavy oxygenation will be required during treatment as it lowers O2 levels. Also some species are less tolerant of this treatment and the dosage will have to be halved, Cichilids are one example. Watch your fingers too as they will be stained a nice deep brown colour and you'll end up looking like a 100 a day smoker.
Sorry for the long post but this is not a topic that can just be breezed over.
Regards
Adam
Thanks for the info. Adam. I had a gut feeling Rob's final pics displayed something I have only seen in koi. Nasty business, like you say, its always difficult to know when to treat. I suppose in koi you should get a bit more time to save them due to their size. I'm guessing Rob's plec didn't stand much chance? 
Any ideas what might have caused the stress Rob?
Cheers
Tom
Any ideas what might have caused the stress Rob?
Cheers
Tom
Cheers for that Adam and Tom
As far as medications go, I agree whole hearedly, and must admit will only use them as a last ditch attempt. I'm a bit of a water-hcane and up the temp man myself!!
The only thing that I can think of that could have caused undue stress, was a power cut in the middle of the night for about 1.5 hours, the day prior to noticing the L205. The caused a drop in temp of about 4 degrees, (the house is very cold at the moment). If it wasn't the temp drop, it could a bean a slight spike afterwords I suppose. If this was the case I feel the Clwon Loaches would have been affected. Summarising I think it msut have been the reduction in temp.
cheers everyone
Rob
As far as medications go, I agree whole hearedly, and must admit will only use them as a last ditch attempt. I'm a bit of a water-hcane and up the temp man myself!!
The only thing that I can think of that could have caused undue stress, was a power cut in the middle of the night for about 1.5 hours, the day prior to noticing the L205. The caused a drop in temp of about 4 degrees, (the house is very cold at the moment). If it wasn't the temp drop, it could a bean a slight spike afterwords I suppose. If this was the case I feel the Clwon Loaches would have been affected. Summarising I think it msut have been the reduction in temp.
cheers everyone
Rob
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
Is that tank planted Rob? If so, a power outage would have also caused a severe lack of dissolved oxygen, which seems to really get to the plecos first, IME. Plants are uptaking oxygen at night also, but as long as there is still current, there's usually not a problem. I've had clogged filters have a whole tank full of bristlenose fry at the top of a planted tank in the morning!
That still doesn't really give you much help with what could have been wrong with your little guy though
Barbie
That still doesn't really give you much help with what could have been wrong with your little guy though
Barbie
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Hi Babrie
The tank has a fair amount of java fern, so yes to a degree you could well be right. I thin kthere was basically an amalgamation of things whenthe power cut happened that possibley made the L205 more susseptible than usual. I have spoken to a local fish vet, who feels it could well have been a bacteria that has lay dormant in the fish due oit's good health. As soon as the fish' defences were down, it took a very aggressive hold.
Thanks barbie. Guess it's just one of those things. It would almost be easier to accept if I felt I had neglected the tank in some way at least it would be an explanation.
rob
The tank has a fair amount of java fern, so yes to a degree you could well be right. I thin kthere was basically an amalgamation of things whenthe power cut happened that possibley made the L205 more susseptible than usual. I have spoken to a local fish vet, who feels it could well have been a bacteria that has lay dormant in the fish due oit's good health. As soon as the fish' defences were down, it took a very aggressive hold.
Thanks barbie. Guess it's just one of those things. It would almost be easier to accept if I felt I had neglected the tank in some way at least it would be an explanation.
rob
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
Thats better! 
Sounds like the power cut would have been enough to unduely stress the plec which in turn lead to it contracting the bacterial infection. Once the infection got a hold the fishes immune sytsem just couldn't cope.
McEve, a lab analysis would be required in order to obtain a conclusive result as bacterial infections are all very similar in appearance. It's only through lab analysis that the exact strain responsible can be established that's providing the corpse was fresh enough.
McEve, a lab analysis would be required in order to obtain a conclusive result as bacterial infections are all very similar in appearance. It's only through lab analysis that the exact strain responsible can be established that's providing the corpse was fresh enough.
