Juvenile Death!

If it isn't to late, and you're desperately looking for some advice, hopefully someone can help you out.

User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Juvenile Death!

Post by Raul-7 »

Today I woke up to find that my 1 week (4 month old) introduction has died; but for some reason I wasn't surprised, but nonetheless dismayed. :( From day one he was always in hiding; I never saw him out at all nor did I believe he was eating. Whenever I checked up on him, he looked rather scrawny and unhealthy. Anyone have any ideas for possible cause of death? I didn't see any redness; NH4 toxicity is ruled out, NO2 is 0, and NO3 is below 2.5ppm - thus DOCs weren't the case. I believe he died of internal parasites. What do you think? :?
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

What temperature was the tank? What else is in it? How large is it? What were you trying to feed? I assume ruled out means there was no ammonia at all? What is the pH of the tank? Do you modify it in any way? I seriously doubt it was parasites. I've received wild plecos just loaded with parasites and had them perk right up with proper food and temps. It's possible, but it's not a common problem with plecos.

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

Barbie wrote:What temperature was the tank? What else is in it? How large is it? What were you trying to feed? I assume ruled out means there was no ammonia at all? What is the pH of the tank? Do you modify it in any way? I seriously doubt it was parasites. I've received wild plecos just loaded with parasites and had them perk right up with proper food and temps. It's possible, but it's not a common problem with plecos.

Barbie
Tank: 20G long
Feeding: Hikari Carnivore, New Life pellets
Temperature: 82-83F (After WC it went down to 79F)
Tankmates: 6 juvenile Cherry Shrimp
Size: 1"
NH4/NH3: 0; I did a 30% WC (WC using cool water, but dropping slowly into the tank) the day before he died and added carbon to the canister filter.
pH: 7.64 (0.01+/-)

The only thing I did that might have caused a problem was that I replanted some of the plants; which meant I moved the driftwood around. But later placed it in the same place it was before. During this time the other juvenile made me realize he wasn't happy by clinging onto the glass, but as soon as I finished he went off under the driftwood. Meanwhile the one that died, didn't react at all.
User avatar
Rob
Hypan-guru!
Posts: 1568
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:50 am
Location: Southwest Scotland
Contact:

Post by Rob »

Hi Raul-7

Sorry to hear about the fry. As Barbie stated, a 4 month old fry that has been captive bred will have a very slim chance of having a parasitic infection.

Do you have a sand substrate in your tank?

One of the major problems with zebra fry, ( and zebras in general) is that they can have problems acclimatising to new environments. Have you seen him eat at all since you have had him?

The reason I ask about the substrate is if you have disturbed substrate that has not been moved for some time then gas pockets canbe release.

rob
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

I have black sand; I have a lot of MTS (over 50) in the substrate to aerate it. I didn't see any H2S gas bubble up.

I've never seen him eat; I know Zebra's are shy but there should at least be droppings or the food tablet should move from it's original place (that's what the other one does). But that didn't happened, it seems he never ventured out of his hollow driftwood cave.

I just don't know why he died, I mean if it was NH4 it would've shown (red gills), but that wasn't the case. I wish I could've known the cause so something like this won't happen in the future! :x
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

How long has the tank been set up?

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

It's 3 weeks old now; but they were introduced when it was two weeks old. At that time neither of them showed any signs of distress, both were hiding away under/in the driftwood.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

And you're sure the ammonia and nitrite levels were 0 the whole time? IMO that tank is WAY too young to have baby zebras. Do you have another mature tank in the house? Zebras are very sensitive to the cycyling process and either ammonia or nitrites present in trace amounts would keep the fry from eating and weaken his system, IMO. This article might help your understanding of what happens during that process a bit. If I had to guess, I'd say you used just enough stuff from an established aquarium to jumpstart the cycle a bit, but a spike from nitrites as it finished the process finished him off. Many people see 0 nitrite and find dead fish because it's that last hump that kills them, basically keeping their blood from carrying enough oxygen.

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

Barbie wrote:And you're sure the ammonia and nitrite levels were 0 the whole time? IMO that tank is WAY too young to have baby zebras. Do you have another mature tank in the house? Zebras are very sensitive to the cycyling process and either ammonia or nitrites present in trace amounts would keep the fry from eating and weaken his system, IMO. This article might help your understanding of what happens during that process a bit. If I had to guess, I'd say you used just enough stuff from an established aquarium to jumpstart the cycle a bit, but a spike from nitrites as it finished the process finished him off. Many people see 0 nitrite and find dead fish because it's that last hump that kills them, basically keeping their blood from carrying enough oxygen.

Barbie
I know all about the nitrogen cycle; I even used a bag full of substrate from a mature tank to "jump start" the bacteria colony. Even if they are sensitive, there should be signs of distress - the other clinged onto the glass so I knew something was wrong, but the one that died stayed inside the hollow driftwood. I mean why did one die from nitrite toxicity while the other one wasn't affected? Why was one of them noticeably eating while the other one wasn't? DOCs could be a problem, but I took precautions (carbon and Purigen) to prevent such things from getting out of hand. I mean Zebra's aren't that fragile compared to other fish such as Licorice or Chocolate gouramis. Especially given the fact they are tank-bred and not wild.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

Substrate from a tank without an undergravel filter will do very little to actually "jumpstart" the tank. Filter media, along with some water from an established tank to not shock the bacteria and also already have food in it so it doesn't starve are much more effective methods, IME.

Why do some people die of pneumonia and others don't? The weaker of the two obviously succumbed, while the other was just very stressed. Carbon and purigen and DOC are the least of your worries when you're dealing with fish one generation from the amazon in a not established tank.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. You asked for help figuring out the cause. I realize this is not the cause you would like to hear, but it IS very likely the one that you need to look into. New tanks and young, sensitive fish just aren't the best of combinations. While you're right, these fish aren't chocolate gouramis, they're also not a fish I'd personally recommend as bulletproof, either.

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
aquaticclarity
Newbie
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 4:05 am
Location: Mequon, WI USA

Post by aquaticclarity »

Do you know what the babies were being feed before you got them? The first several spawns of zebras I had kicked off after 45-60 days due to a "meat" only diet. I realize your fish are/were much older then this, but they may still have needed a large portion of veggies in their diets.
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

Barbie wrote:Substrate from a tank without an undergravel filter will do very little to actually "jumpstart" the tank. Filter media, along with some water from an established tank to not shock the bacteria and also already have food in it so it doesn't starve are much more effective methods, IME.

Why do some people die of pneumonia and others don't? The weaker of the two obviously succumbed, while the other was just very stressed. Carbon and purigen and DOC are the least of your worries when you're dealing with fish one generation from the amazon in a not established tank.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. You asked for help figuring out the cause. I realize this is not the cause you would like to hear, but it IS very likely the one that you need to look into. New tanks and young, sensitive fish just aren't the best of combinations. While you're right, these fish aren't chocolate gouramis, they're also not a fish I'd personally recommend as bulletproof, either.

Barbie
I'm not doubting your expierences; your knowledge on Zebra's can't compare to my general fish knowledge. But your analogy isn't a fair comparison, pneumonia is caused by pathogens - similar to ich, worms, etc.; but DOCs (NH4, NO2, NO3) are toxic, similar to putting people in a room full of H2S and forcing them to breathe it in. In that case, all of them should die.

But you can agree that he must've been weak to begin with? I mean he should've at least showed signs of distress if he was in trouble. Or am I wrong? :)

BTW, I noticed he used to hang upside down inside the hollow driftwood. Is this cause of concern?
Last edited by Raul-7 on Tue Feb 07, 2006 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

aquaticclarity wrote:Do you know what the babies were being feed before you got them? The first several spawns of zebras I had kicked off after 45-60 days due to a "meat" only diet. I realize your fish are/were much older then this, but they may still have needed a large portion of veggies in their diets.
They were fed Hikar Carnivore; but I did notice rasping marks on the driftwood.
User avatar
Barbie
Moderator
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:07 pm
Location: Spokane, WA, US
Contact:

Post by Barbie »

There are a few different causes of pneumonia, one is even viral. Usually pneumonia is caused by succumbing to stress factors, whether it's a secondary infection from an initial illness, weakness of the lungs themselves, or environmentally related. Basically no, I don't agree he must have been weak to begin with, although ALL fry are going to be less strong than adults.

Just as a qualifier, zebras are actually only in 2 of my tanks. I keep 18+ tanks of a wide assortment of requirements. I did commercial tank maintenance for a good number of years and I have managed a couple different aquarium stores. I'm not picking on you, I've just been hoping you'd see that blaming anyone for the loss of a newly acquired young zebra when it was kept in a tank that most would consider not stable might be a bit premature. Hopefully you'll have better luck with your other one.

Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
User avatar
Raul-7
Obsessed!!
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:38 pm
Location: Lomita, CA

Post by Raul-7 »

I never blamed anyone; I was just stating he wasn't 100% and scummbed to NTS, but why was he refusing to eat? Refusal to eat usually means illness.
Post Reply