Anyone Selling Quality Captive Zebras (L046)
Plastic Mac, if you're careful to not breed related offspring together then I doubt that new blood in the form of F0s would be needed. When this all takes off there should be "plenty" of non related captive bred zebras knocking about that breeders can swap so as to maintain a healthy gene pool. Hopefully at some point there will no longer be the need to collect zebras from the wild, a bit hypocritical of me really considering that all of my adult zebras are F0s but I guess you have to start somewhere. There are many other species of fish that are seldomly collected from the wild as breeders are able to supply the trade with captive bred fish.
F0=wild caught.
F1=first generation captive bred.
F2=second generation captive bred.
F3=third generation captive bred.................
If I remeber correctly the F# terminology originates from reptile breeders and has been adopted by fish breeders. Using WC and CB is ok initially but the F# system helps to identify subsequent generations of captive breds.
Platty252, I have never heard of zebras being exported via Peru. Perhaps this is how exporters are getting around the current zebra embargo.
Adam
F0=wild caught.
F1=first generation captive bred.
F2=second generation captive bred.
F3=third generation captive bred.................
If I remeber correctly the F# terminology originates from reptile breeders and has been adopted by fish breeders. Using WC and CB is ok initially but the F# system helps to identify subsequent generations of captive breds.
Platty252, I have never heard of zebras being exported via Peru. Perhaps this is how exporters are getting around the current zebra embargo.
Adam
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Hi Nesolb
Hi Nesolb, Remember me??
Can i just ask what you paid for the zebra's you recently purchased?
I have a breeding group of 5 and am thinking about selling them but don't know how much to let them go for.??
Can i just ask what you paid for the zebra's you recently purchased?
I have a breeding group of 5 and am thinking about selling them but don't know how much to let them go for.??
success is a journey full of unbelievable experiance NOT a destination with an unbelievable experiance.
F stands for Filial generation and the cichlid world occasionally gets their undies in a real bunch discussing it's proper usage. Basically the purists want it to be G1 for generations removed from wild, but the F has been around long enough it's "recognized" so people don't tend to change.
While I do think it's extremely important that we track the heritage of these fish, so that we can avoid inbreeding 10 years down the line, I know that Labidochromis caeruleus is a fish that exploded in the hobby 10 years ago or so. There was one single pair taken from the lake, and all of the fish in the hobby were descendants of those fish until just the last year or two. They're capable of reproducing at about 5 months with proper care, so you can see just how many generations it's possible were out there. An outcross with an unrelated male into second generation fry would be more than adequate to infuse new genetics. They don't consider it line breeding even until the 3rd generation back into related animals, let alone inbreeding.
Keeping in mind I already have spare males to cross back on any females I might eventually grow out, it does at least make for an interesting discussion .
Barbie
While I do think it's extremely important that we track the heritage of these fish, so that we can avoid inbreeding 10 years down the line, I know that Labidochromis caeruleus is a fish that exploded in the hobby 10 years ago or so. There was one single pair taken from the lake, and all of the fish in the hobby were descendants of those fish until just the last year or two. They're capable of reproducing at about 5 months with proper care, so you can see just how many generations it's possible were out there. An outcross with an unrelated male into second generation fry would be more than adequate to infuse new genetics. They don't consider it line breeding even until the 3rd generation back into related animals, let alone inbreeding.
Keeping in mind I already have spare males to cross back on any females I might eventually grow out, it does at least make for an interesting discussion .
Barbie
[url=http://www.plecos.com][img]http://plecos.com/plecosbanner.gif[/img][/url]
Actually there is no such thing as an "F0" generation. The so called "F0" generation is actually called the "P1" , "P" or "Parent generation" and this does NOT mean or have anything to do with "wild caught generation" as some people mistaken. The filial generation system is only for determining how much a fish, plant or other animal has been inbred. There really should be no arguement as to the usage of "Filial Generations" since it is a scientific term that has a set definition. I think an Austrian monk name Mendal coined this system in the later part of the 1800's and did expierements on pea plants
http://hal.weihenstephan.de/genglos/asp ... asp?nr=339
Any two unrelated fish that are spawned together are the "P" generation and all inbreeding from there is considered F1, F2, F3 etc. After F2 you really should mix a new parent in and start over with a new P generation. The first Filial Generation is all the offspring from the "P" generation ( all brothers and sisters, but not inbred) . The second Filial generation is the offspring from two of the offspring from the first Filial generation ( 1st inbreeding stage)
What really gets confusing is when you mix partially related off spring.
Say you mix a parent with a child- that would only be a 50% relation and not considered an "F2" generation since F2's have parents that are 100% related. Probably easier to just start a full new P generation but it is always not possible to find a new mate
Or Say you had two genetic lines going and they both started out with a single female. You breed the two lines down 3 generations and in the 2nd generation added a new and different male to each of the two lines. You take one male and one female from each of the two the 3rd generation and breed them together. I am not sure if you could consider these a new P generation or not. Their relation has been diluted to by about 25% or more so it is not like breeding a brother and sister such as an in a F1 generation. You might be able to consider these a new "P" generation
http://hal.weihenstephan.de/genglos/asp ... asp?nr=339
Any two unrelated fish that are spawned together are the "P" generation and all inbreeding from there is considered F1, F2, F3 etc. After F2 you really should mix a new parent in and start over with a new P generation. The first Filial Generation is all the offspring from the "P" generation ( all brothers and sisters, but not inbred) . The second Filial generation is the offspring from two of the offspring from the first Filial generation ( 1st inbreeding stage)
What really gets confusing is when you mix partially related off spring.
Say you mix a parent with a child- that would only be a 50% relation and not considered an "F2" generation since F2's have parents that are 100% related. Probably easier to just start a full new P generation but it is always not possible to find a new mate
Or Say you had two genetic lines going and they both started out with a single female. You breed the two lines down 3 generations and in the 2nd generation added a new and different male to each of the two lines. You take one male and one female from each of the two the 3rd generation and breed them together. I am not sure if you could consider these a new P generation or not. Their relation has been diluted to by about 25% or more so it is not like breeding a brother and sister such as an in a F1 generation. You might be able to consider these a new "P" generation
It is really sad about what happened to the labs, isn't barbie. Really the correct term is G1, and i was in a discussion about this on another forum. With the yellow labs, i plan on raising my own line bred group, selective breeding only the best. I figure it will take me 3 years to get some good stock, because from birth i can raise a mbuna to spawn at 4 months, especially with yellow labs as they spawn at 1.5 inches. If only zebras could spawn in 4 months.....
I have been through a lot of websites / forums and the myth that filial generation denotes how far removed offspring are from wild caught parents is pervasive. I encourage you to look through university and science websites for the proper information and definition.
The simple fact is that you do not know if the so called "wild caught" generation were not siblings to begin with. Wild caught generations are not necessarily more valuable in a breeding program because you have no idea what they were exposed to when growing up or how much inbreeding has already occurred. Lack of food, drought, toxic substances in the water etc. Some previously line bred fish can also have some better traits to work with, such as longer finnage or different color morphs that you might want to start your new "P" generation with.
Many times captive bred fish are more robust and more comfortable with breeding in the aquarium. This is just proven fact.
There is no basis to say "the proper term is "G1" as I have never seen this numerology system used in any scientific papers. If you can find it in a dependable science or university website, then I would like to read such info.
http://www.sirinet.net/~jgjohnso/genetics.html
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cbbc/courses/ ... etics.html
The simple fact is that you do not know if the so called "wild caught" generation were not siblings to begin with. Wild caught generations are not necessarily more valuable in a breeding program because you have no idea what they were exposed to when growing up or how much inbreeding has already occurred. Lack of food, drought, toxic substances in the water etc. Some previously line bred fish can also have some better traits to work with, such as longer finnage or different color morphs that you might want to start your new "P" generation with.
Many times captive bred fish are more robust and more comfortable with breeding in the aquarium. This is just proven fact.
There is no basis to say "the proper term is "G1" as I have never seen this numerology system used in any scientific papers. If you can find it in a dependable science or university website, then I would like to read such info.
http://www.sirinet.net/~jgjohnso/genetics.html
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cbbc/courses/ ... etics.html