What is really happening?

Whats happening in the wild, current issues and debates....oooh this one'll get hot!

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Plastic Mac
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What is really happening?

Post by Plastic Mac »

I was reading a forum today and came aross someone asking about zebra's and they quoted this:

This fish was exported from Brazil in great numbers and this has caused it to become endangered so because of this the Brazilian Government put a ban on the exportation of the Zebra Pleco.
Ok fair enough, we're all aware of that. However, Shane from Planet Catfish (who I'm sure some of you know) gave this as a reply:
Not sure where the quote came from, but the ban has nothing to do with them being endangered. They do not appear on CITES or any other list as even "threatened." The "ban" has nothing to do with species conservation and everything to do with the Brazilian government trying to figure out how they can tax the tropical fish exporting industry. This is a multi-million dollar industry in Brazil and the government (with all fairness) wants its share.
-Shane

Have we been wrong all this time do you think? Or is do you think there's so much confusion out there that even those on the front line (which I think Shane pretty much is) are having a hard time knowing what's going on?

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Post by dave »

Well lets try and apply a little bit of logic to this.

And also using past posts.

Before the export ban the fish was always expensive, and if L46's were so abundant in the wild, then market forces would have ensured that more would have been imported and the price depressed.

Exporting tropical fish, while generating some finance, the amounts of money involved while incomprehensible to individuals, is insignificant compared to the money produced from soya beans or cattle production or even the export of timber.

Now say they exported 100,000 L46's a year. and imposed a £50 tax per fish, only 5 million pounds, and this really isn't going to make any difference to an economy the size of Brazils.

And as per a previous post, well Chester Zoo took 6 of my young on Thursday, and it was really nice to spend an hour and a half behind the scenes, seeing what they are doing to conserve fishes from sea horses, to the Cichlids and Livebearers that are known from only one location.

Now the plight of fish as a whole was discussed, and hobbyists have shown the way to breeding many species of fish, even directed Mike at Chester Zoo to this site to get tips on L46 breeding and as I think we all know it is not an exact science.

Now people like Shane and Rob have raised the awareness of L no's and how to breed them, and this really does benefit the propagation of the species. The impression I got from my behind the scenes visit, also from the recently produced red list, is that so many species are endangered, and in developing countries it is not going to get any better in the foreseeable future.

On a previous post Barbie stated that Zoo's are unlikely to release fish to the hobby. While this may be the case in the USA, and I'm not sure whether the policy of all Zoo's in the UK is consistent, but this rule doesn't apply here, well so far. There are strict criteria that have to be met though.

Any thoughts welcome

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Post by Plastic Mac »

Thanks for your thoughts Dave...although I'm not sure I totally agree with your assessment of taxing the fishing export industry. If you only take into account L46's then yes there isn't much cash to be made (from a government point of view anyway) however if they implement this with all exported fish and tax them on their potential retail value then I think there will be a lkot of money to be made. The shame is like anything else, any hike in the overall cost will no doubt be passed onto the consumer.

Anyway, I responded to Shane post. The thread is below but I've quoted my question to him and his reponse is below the thread link:

http://www.plecofanatics.com/forum/show ... hp?t=17505

From me:

Hi Shane,

I'm the first to agree that there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding Hyp. Zebra, and for us who aren't on the front line it's nigh on impossible to tell what's true and what's not.
Of all the information I've heard, the Brazilian government wanting to tax the fish export industry is not one I've heard before. I could understand that if they intend to tax each fish based on it's potential value, which I imagine is practically impossible to implement especially when some exporters have been known to lie on their export documents.
However what I don't understand is, if the reason is that simple..'the government simply wanting their share' then why does everyone else seem to think it's based on some other reason?

I quote from an article which appeared in Datz:

On 28th May 2004 the MMA published a list of Brazilian invertebrates and fishes threatened by extinction. This list consists of 156 fish species that are forbidden from being caught, traded or even bred in captivity (the only exception is for scientific studies) from the 1st July 2004. Since the 1st December 2004 these fishes are explicitly excluded from the trade, even though mentioned on the IBAMA positive list. Amongst many others the best known is Hypancistrus zebra, the zebra pleco. But also other, mainly endemic loricariids, Scleromystax (Corydoras) macropterus and the well-known Mimagoniates spp. as well as some other characids are listed. Marine aquarists can also forget about Gramma brasiliensis and Elacatinus figaro, two very well known species. All those fishes are forbidden for export from Brazil and they will not appear again unless removed from this list

(The whole article is here)

The previously mentioned banned list is linked below (I think it's the right one).

http://www.mma.gov.br/port/sbf/fauna/lista.html

You state in your post that they do not appear on any list as threatened...yet although I don't speak the langauge I 'm pretty sure the last word in the title is 'extinction'. Is this document out of date possibly or just not worth the paper it's written on?


Here's also another link to a thread showing an email conversation on PC, although I have quoted it below too:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9351

The reponse is from:

Prof. Ning Labbish Chao, PhD
Departamento de Ciências Pesqueiras
Universidade do Amazonas - Projeto Piaba

and he says:

Zebra is temporarily prohibited for trading, pending a study and evaluation. Brazilian ichthyologists are currently revising a new list of permitted species with IBAMA. The new list probably will include 600-700 freshwater fishes that can be exported. It is an impossible task to inspect fishes.


Is perhaps all of this information true...and it's a case of there being too many cooks in the kitchen? ie. Too may government departments and committees all trying to resolve the same issue at the same time and not knowing what the other is doing?


Any help you can provide to clear all this up would be most appreciated.

Dukerider.


Shanes response:

Dukerider,
A lot of good questions and I will try to answer them as best as I can. I'll be the first to admit that I do not have all the facts I would like to with regards to this issue.


Quote:
I could understand that if they intend to tax each fish based on it's potential value, which I imagine is practically impossible to implement especially when some exporters have been known to lie on their export documents.



You hit the nail on the head with regards to why they want to identify the different fishes. An exporter can label a bag "Otocinclus" and ship out H. zebra and 99.9% percent of customs officials around the world would be none the wiser. Look at all the fish currently making it into Australia as "Peckoltia pulcher."

Brasil never did any studies of population densities, reproductive data, numbers exported, etc, (heck, only one of several known Hypancistrus spp in the Xingu is even described) so it is impossible to say if there was or was not overfishing for the aquarium trade. Given that the Xingu basin has the same landmass as the country of France, and H. zebra can only be collected by a few specialist collectors with dive gear, I find it hard to believe that commercial collection was having much of an impact.
I do, however, agree that it can not be a bad thing to give the little guys some time off.


Quote:
However what I don't understand is, if the reason is that simple..'the government simply wanting their share' then why does everyone else seem to think it's based on some other reason?


Because the Brasilian government stopped the exportation of these fish under an edict or "ban" from IBAMA (the Brasilian Institute of the Environment and Natural Resources). This ban was never based on any scientific studies. The Brasilian tax authority has no legal power to ban tropical fish exports. Many people made the assumption that, since the ban came from IBAMA, it must be based on well-founded environmental concerns. It was not.

The full official reason given, according to Dr. Chao at the University of the Amazon in Manaus, was that the Brasilian government wanted to update its list of spp. permitted for export and put things on hold until the list was complete. Hence his statement, in your post above, "It is an impossible task to inspect fishes."

Please do not take it that I am faulting the Brasilian government for trying to get a hold over their natural resources and make sure the Brasilian people receive fair reimbursement for the export of their resources. But just because they used an environmental government agency to stop the exports, do not assume that H. zebra must therefore be endangered. The link you posted above was to the Brasilian Ministry of Environment, the parent Ministry of IBAMA. H. zebra's "endangered" status is not accepted by any US, European, or UN group because there is no scientific data to back up the claim.

-Shane


Makes interseting reading I think...of course the next question is how long do you think it's going to take to resolve this problem?...If I had to guess, just by the fact that government agencies are involved will probably mean they're years away from being exported again.

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Post by dave »

I also do not have access to all the facts, and would also be inclined to think that numbers wise the fish is unlikely to be endangered.

I also agree with you Plastic Mac, that the export of all fish from Brazil is multi million pound business, and if the motive of the Government is to generate more funds, I would have thought that there would have been a ban placed on numerous other species of fish that are popular in the hobby.

As for the range of L46, I don't think anybody really knows, but I will assume that there are certain collection points, and while the fish were being imported, the size of these fish was getting smaller, the assumption I make here is that the majprity of adults have been removed from a particular vicinity. Depending on how extensive the fishes range is determines the effect collection has on status, and as stated previously it is likely to have little effect.

Now the demand for this fish is never the less is likely to be it's downfall. It is well documented that loss of habitat is the reason for the plight of the flora and fauna worldwide at the moment.

As well trodden paths are made to the collection points, and transport to the storage points improves, it also makes accessibilty to the surrounding forest easier. As accessibility increases depletion of the surrounding environment increases.

With other species from the Xingu, while the fish maybe desirable, it seems a bit pot luck which appear in the hobby, and there is nowhere near the demand for any of these fish as there is for the L46's, so the opening of the forest is less likely or delayed.

Now if conservation is the main aim, and any of the above rings true, do we really want the export ban lifting?

Are there enough L46's in the UK to make us self sufficient?

As for the price you need to pay to get a colony, or fishes from different sources, which is dictated by how popular the fish is. We should ask ourselves why we didn't get involved with this fish before the export ban. Without the ban prices would not of altered, guess we are creating our own inflation.

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Post by madmoroccan »

With regards to pricing, they were never cheap. As I remember, the first few that became available to the hobby cost 1000DM... I have the original Datz article (written in German) that states this... So it is a misconception that they were ever cheap... even when they were available for 40-80 pounds each they were expensive, other families of fish aside. Remember we are now talking about fish which cost somebodies week's wages (unless is you're a millionaire).

So the arguement that the hobby isn't causing problems in the wild is naive. I am sure if they were available in many parts of the world or even many parts of Brazil that would mean cheaper prices. Simply because the availabity would be greater hence less intrest from "pokemon" style "i want the rarest fishie" collectors. Which without a doubt we all are.

I am inclined to think that the ban also is very pointless. There are no conservation sentiments eminating from the Brazilian government... The proposed dam proves this (I don't believe that the postponement of said dam is relevant, I believe this more lack of finances than love for nature). So in short I am quite sure that the ban will eventually be lifted with government imposing duties on ALL ornamental fish (not only L46) so in that aspect I agree with the post on PC.

That's just my 2 pence's worth.
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Post by McEve »

dave wrote: We should ask ourselves why we didn't get involved with this fish before the export ban.
Who are you refering to here? I think you'll find that many members now working for the preserving of this fish has been interested in this fish a long time before the ban was imposed.
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Post by dave »

I for one do not mean to cause offence, and without this site many people would not have bred this fish, or other members of the Hypancistrus family.

In addition to this there are F1's appearing in the hobby which again is thanks to this site, whether they are members or not, and I have no doubt most people have taken tips from this site.

I also compliment people who are in it long term, whether they are new to L46's or have been keeping them for many years.

There have also been debates about cost, and it's supply and demand which dictates this and despite the efforts of some people, this is not enough to depress the market as a whole.

Whether people are breeding L46's for profit or to preserve the species ( I know what my motive is ) it matters not to me as it is introducing more fish to the hobby.

Now the expression "a dog is for life" springs to mind. Also a recent film increased the demand for Clown Fish.

I do appreciate that the interest generated by this site is not as far reaching as a Hollywood film, but it does generate interest, myself included. I think we all realise it is unlikely that anybody breeding L46's will get rich quick.

So I would ask anybody who is thinking about getting involved with L46's to take a serious look at themselves, do they have the patience, dedication and facilities to take on a breeding programme.

Hopefully this will prevent adverts being posted, "group for sale bought as a breeding project" (Obviously they failed), and allow people who answered yes to the above to get involved.

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Post by madmoroccan »

@ Dave...

In short it is not upto anybody... If somebody wants something, they will go out and buy it. So to say that you are more worthy than others around you is rubbish.

BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC:

None of us work directly for the Brazilian govt. hence all our arguements are speculation. Let us not forget that and be drawn into arguements about who's in the hobby for the money.

@ Plastic Mac

Thanks for posting such an interesting topic, shame we can't discuss it without flaming (not you).
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Post by dave »

Answering the last post, I avoided the topic of price, and I agree with your good self that if somebody wants to buy something they will.

In addition about, worthiness I was not judging, I did state it matters not about the motivation, if more are bred it benefits the hobby as a whole.

The only criticism I could be accused making and I don't think it was criticism, was for people to think before before they buy.

This sprang to mind from a few adverts over the past year on Tropical Fish Classified, which state group for sale which were bought as a breeding project. Also seen fish for sale then they were withdrawn as the vendor found eggs.

Now this strikes me as people losing patience, also prevents people who are in it for the long haul obtaining fish (And Mad Morrocan I do believe you are in it long term).

As for the L46 ban, I believe it should be maintained, Shane in the link that plastic mac posted said that it would be a good idea to give them a rest.

Nobody knows the L46 status in the wild, but the more collecting that goes on the more the forest opens up, and with this degradation of the surrounding environment, and the loss of numerous species.

And while the dam project is on hold I'm unlikely to alter my opinion. Not that my opinion will affect anything.

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Post by madmoroccan »

Fair enough mate.

Yes, you are right... So much so that our views don't clash, but more agree.

Sorry for jumping the gun, I too think that the aquarist adverts of recent times show idiocy amongst a lot of people who jumped on the get rich quick band wagon. There was an ad on ebay about a two/three weeks ago which advertised a "pair"... They were subsequently withdrawn because the owner found a spawn, I assume that is who you were refering to?

If that was the case, then I have no hesitation in saying that I too would have kept the pair... Though I am speaking hypothetiacally... I don't think I will ever sell adult zebras period. In this hobby it is fair to say that the keeper are those people who research and take great pride in their pets no matter what the value or sentimentality... For sure, I am a long hauler... Cheap zebs for the enthusiasts if my final aim. I would like to help those who genuinely have a keen interest in the hobby.
It is extremely easy to tell who those people are. Needless to say they find you.
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Post by dave »

And now that hostilities have ceased, and sticking to in the wild.

I think the export ban should remain, there are enough fish in the UK alone to preserve the species.

I really do commend the site for showing the way on breeding L46.

But nothing is perfect, and there is one question that keeps appearing about tank mates.

There are records of many difficult species to breed, breeding in community tanks, but being in a community I guess reduces the odds.

So I am a little bit sceptical about peoples intent about breeding L46 when they ask this question. If the export ban is ever lifted, and by people keeping them with other fish the potential for breeding is reduced. I guess this could lead to increased pressure on the wild stock.

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Post by madmoroccan »

I don't agree with keeping zebras with anything else, though another point that brings me to is that some combinations do work... Kulhi Loaches make a good clean up crew and don't disturb fry. I have seen 1 kept in a fry tank.

Newbies and inexperienced L46 keepers (even profiteers) should ask questions about what they can keep, that way they can get the experienced view... don't you agree?
If we treat anybody who suggests something with ridicule and make them un-willing to ask those questions then wouldn't we lose their knowledge (later on) because they wouldn't bother posting?

This site would class as gem for informational purposes, I for one thought I knew everything there was to know about the "brown suckie fish"... Till I discovered ZP.

And the arguement that the ban is good isn't one that I totally agree with... Like I said in a previous post, there is monetary benefit somewhere along the line. Hence the ban is all show in my opinion til the government works out how to profit from ornamental fish. Once that happens we will still be paying over inflated prices... although not as over inflated as at the moment.

That leaves us with over inflated prices and lack of supply. Not something we all want. I don't think that a mass breeding program has been attempted anywhere in the world either, there was a post here that speculated that in the far east this was happening to L46... I have looked into it and so far it seems to be untrue or kept very hush hush.
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Post by Barbie »

I know of at least two breeders with dozens of adults in their set ups. I also know of one overseas that had just over 100 he was working with. I haven't talked to him in a year and a half though to see how it was coming along. They were specifically purchased to take advantage of the coming restriction on shipping them btw. Not being able to find people telling you they're doing it doesn't mean it didn't happen ;).

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Post by madmoroccan »

:D I wish I had a mega stash of adult zebras... LOL :lol:

Still, I am not going to say I disagree with their thinking, that sounds like shrewd business sense... And if it means that there are people out there who have massive quantities of L46 with a view to mass farming fry then so be it. It is the enthusiast's gain if they hit the market as adults.

I disagree with the reasons for the mass purchase (mega profits), but the benefits are significant (increased availability).

Do these people live in the UK, they sound like good best friend material! LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

Rob wouldn't be one would he? RIGHT, I AM MOVING TO SCOTLAND... next door to him! LOL :lol: :lol: :lol:

In time we will all make a difference. Please god let it be soon!
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