My new setup

Pretty much explains itself really. If you have questions about tank set-ups, tank furniture, (caves etc) chuck them in here!

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har_eh
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My new setup

Post by har_eh » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:06 pm

Some shots of my new setup, changed it due to the arrival of the altums.
The combination is probably somewhat odd, but it's working out great so far!

Pterophyllum altum rio orinoco f0
Hypancistrus zebra
Paracheirodon axelrodi
Corydoras trilineatus

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TwoTankAmin
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Re: My new setup

Post by TwoTankAmin » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:46 pm

Harold- I have Altums. I just got another 22 and they are going through Q for a few months. There is almost no way newly imported altums can survive in zebra parameters. The water is not acid enough. I have taken about a month to raise the pH in the Q tank from its initial 4.3 to its current 5.0-5.1 (TDS are kept under 100 ppm having started about 65 ppm). Zebras do not live in tannin stained acid water. So the tank is wrong for one of these fish.

Given how sensitive wild Altums are, I sure hope you don't have issues. I wish you luck.

Check out these videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duvFEPwa ... ature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3qmJtlg ... =g-all-lik
What makes the common person uncommon is common sense.

har_eh
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Re: My new setup

Post by har_eh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:36 pm

Hey Chris, I'm well aware of the parameters they live in. I've also spoken to some breeders/keepers weather it's absolutely necessary to keep them in those parameters. I received mixes answers, and the person who imported them(they're 100% wild) also confirmed after a long enough acclimatisation it's possible to keep them in "normal" water (he had them on ph 8.2 himself).
People wouldn't believe it, but I've seen him measure the water myself with 2 different ph meters.

Mine are being kept on ph7.8(tds unknown), the importer had them on ph8.2 & 350ppm. The way they eat and swim around is absolutely normal they're with me for 2 weeks now.
If you're interested in other testimonials, have a look here: http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/show ... hp?t=29066
Second post f/e.

The importer really convinced me I wouldn't have any problems, otherwise I wouldn't have done it. So just to be clear I wouldn't recommend this combination to anyone else, but for me it's working so far. :?

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TwoTankAmin
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Re: My new setup

Post by TwoTankAmin » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:06 pm

I read that thread. Certainly Angels Plus has an excellent rep. But I am having a hard time accepting what Steve says. There are a few statements made by Steve that fly in the face of what I believe to be fact. I was told by somebody who has lived in Venezuela, done ichtyology there and has been to many of the rivers where Altums are found who specifically recommended using Torpedo beach sand because it was the closest thing he had seen to how the sand in altum habitats looks. Yet Steve R. claims the bottom where they are collected is black. One of them is wrong.

In that thread Steve R wrote:
This is a claim that I've never seen any evidence one way or another. I've seen the claim many times that osmotic pressure is the main cause, but I can't find anything to back this up. I do know that when I used to bring in goldfish that were kept in ponds, I'd put them through a salt bath by drip acclimation followed by adding salt rapidly until the fish lost equilibrium (couple of cups of salt in a gallon of water. I would then plunk them into fresh water and they were instantly fine. Nothing bursting from the rapid change in osmotic pressure. I figured that if it worked with goldfish it would work with angelfish since they have better osmoregulatory systems. Sure enough, no problems doing the same with angelfish I received and tried it on. I've also taken fish from Dave Hlasnick's 50ppm water and plopped them into my 500 ppm water and they don't miss a beat. Of course, the stress isn't that high since they are only bagged for an hour or so. I can say the same with pH. I've taken them rapidly from low to high when they weren't stressed and had no problems. However, what I do know is that fish in transit for a day or two, have a higher survival rate if dripped properly. I've tracked this over many hundreds of shipments where I quizzed the recipients after shipping. Why this is, I can't say one way or the other. I just know that it is what works best for fish that I ship. If anyone knows of a study that gives credible evidence of problems due to hardness, I'd love to see it.
So my response is simple somebody wrote this:
A sudden change in osmotic pressure can put great stress on the osmoregulatory system of a fish. This is of great concern when shipping fish to locations with water different from what they're adapted to. The fish arrives under great stress and is not able to regulate any osmotic pressure differences easily. This is one reason why acclimation should be slow. It also explains why treating diseased fish must be done carefully. When putting them in a salt bath, the concentration of salt should be increased gradually.

It is important to understand osmosis and how it affects our fish. It is a vital component for their well-being. Your ability to control problems, safely ship and receive fish and treat diseases will be enhanced if you pay attention to this aspect of their lives.
from http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleOsmosis.htm Hmm- can Steve have it both ways?

Moreover, a well respected koi site has an interesting take on salt and goldfish http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/koipond/salting_fish.html

My fish came from Pete at VillasCityofAngelfish, I went and picked them up. While the TAFF II site is a well known domestic angel site, you might want to join this site and do some reading http://www.finarama.com/forum/ I chose not to join the TAFF II site but rather to use the Finarama site since I no longer have an interest in non wild angels. The only downside to it is you must become a member to be able to read the forum. I prefer the credentials of the admins and mod staff at finarama which include a Ph.D. in Biochemistry among others.

Harold- one last thing that really put me off about what Steve posted is this. You say you got wild Altums from Steve yet in that thread you linked me to Steve stated:
You will not be able to convince me that altums have changed in the past 10 years (last time I brought any in).
The fish in your pictures certainly looked a bit small for 10 year old Altums.
What makes the common person uncommon is common sense.

har_eh
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Re: My new setup

Post by har_eh » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:11 pm

I merely used the link as an example as it contained examples of people like Steve keeping Orinoco's on a high ph.
My original plan was to pick up red back scalares from the importer but on arrival he didn't have them in stock anymore.
Was a bit annoying having to return empty handed after a 2hour drive when they were still in stock when I left.
That's when he assured me the Orinoco's were fully compatible to my water parameters and I took them instead.

Not sure what made you think I was referring to Steve as my importer, but to be clear they were bought in Holland Steve's example was the first English written statement I could find. :)
As I stated before they're doing great at the moment, do you recon it would be better to bring them back?
They'd end up back in a tank with a ph over 8.. Will put feelers out at my lfs maybe they have a better suited tank available.
Cheers for the links will check them out later.

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TwoTankAmin
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Re: My new setup

Post by TwoTankAmin » Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:36 pm

Sorry Harold, my mistake re the source of your fish.

I do know it is possible to acclimate wild altums to non-acid, non-low TDS conditions as I have done it. But it took me about 5 months to get them to that stage. I also had an edge because the fish I got were not real recent imports. Somebody else did a lot of the work so when I got them a few months later I was able to put them into my neutral water but at a pretty low level of TDS. I ran a 50/50 mix of my tap and distilled (I still did not want to do ro water then so I bought distilled).

However, I started with 10 fish and one did not last the night, I lost another in about 3 weeks and never even found the body. Today I still have 6 which live in 100% my tap which runs about pH 7.0 and TDS between 60 and 85 depending on recent rainfall levels.

If you got these fish out of less acid and harder water, hopefully somebody else did a lot of the work. If you are not losing any fish, then that is the strongest indication that they are doing OK in your water. As long as your fish remain active, eat well and are not showing signs of find damage, then go for it.

I should also note that I plan to keep all my altums in something close to a biotope tank. I want only other fish which are found where Altums live. In case you have never seen them, you might want to watch these vids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... wabng#t=0s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... lgKNI#t=0s
The second vid after the first 2 minutes is at the home and fishroom of Simon Forkel in Germany one of the very few folks who have spawned Altums.
What makes the common person uncommon is common sense.

har_eh
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Re: My new setup

Post by har_eh » Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:06 pm

Nice vids, they're still doing great here atm also took some new pics:

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