Fry photos

Everything you ever wanted to say about "Zebra luvin", but didn't because you thought everyone would take the mickey! Plus general topics for discussion including everything from what you feed them to your personal experiences.

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Caesars
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Fry photos

Post by Caesars »

Hi all,

Cleaning the zebby tank out today, so we managed to catch some fry for a photo opportunity. Ages range from 4 months old (the biggy) to 2 months old (the smaller ones). Below posing in the fry raiser, prior to rejoining colony:

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And a couple of very annoyed at us youngsters in the colony tank:

Image

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Caesars and Polleni
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eklikewhoa
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Post by eklikewhoa »

Congrats!!!

Looks like the one in the second picture is a bulldog nose.
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Post by McEve »

We had a poll about that eklikewhoa, gently! That wasn't gentle :o :)

I'm a bit worried about the development of the tailfin as well... is it just the photo/angle, or does it have a round tail? I've seen this combination before....

wonder what is causing it, if it is indeed what it looks like. What's your water parameters Caesars?

The others look great! :)
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Caesars
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Post by Caesars »

Hi all,

I can confirm that Mr P. (that's his name) is a bull nose, I noticed him too. His tail seems ok to me, it just looks like this because the other one got in the way - tell me what you think.

Here is another picture of it (close up):

Image

Other than that he is a very proud little guy, going around with his dorsal fin held high and looks like he is not quite a push over (to put it mildly).

Btw, I am personally not worried about bullnoses, I have bought one knowingly - if I like the personality of the fish its fine by me. And Mr P. is a cute little fellow.

McEve, this lot (Mr P's bunch) were born in ph 7.4, temperature 28 C, ammonia and the rest (including nitrates) 0 (plenty of ceratofillum in the tank and readings taken daily), dgH 4, KH 4 with the addition of bicarbonate of soda (tap water round here comes with KH 0-1).

Are water parameters influencing shape of nose? Btw, there is one more bull nose amongst the fry - this one is from the batch before Mr P. but can't quite tell who his parents are as they are all mixed up of course - the remaining fry seem all fine - can't confirm yet about the new batch - they are too young to tell.
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Post by McEve »

here is a theory that bullnose develop if the water is too hard. the egg shell is supposed to get too hard, so the fry stay in there for too long, having trouble getting out.

Doesn't look like this is the case with your lot.
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Post by Caesars »

The water is naturally very soft here but I do occasionally add some Trace elements to allow for healthier development of the fish. I had the L333s, the L260, the L262 etc breed and never had a bullnose before - so I don't know.

I do have a bullnose female, I got her knowingly, but she is not the mother of this brood except if I am very much mistaken. I will keep monitoring.

What did you think about Mr P's tail?
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Post by McEve »

The tail looks fine, it was the angle of the other picture that made it look round :)

I have water like yours, and also have to add trace elements. I too have got bullnoses from my spawns.

It was rather interesting to read that rays have their own disfigurement, called the batmansyndrome. maybe different species are suceptible to different disfigurements.... It would be nice to find the real reson why this is happening.

Are you planning on breeding your female?
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Post by discusbabe »

Aw congrats, lovely photos and Mr P is a little cutey!
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Post by Caesars »

Thanks discusbabe.

McEve, my female is in the same tank as everybody else - so she has exactly the same opportunities to spawn as every other female in there. She will soon be coming of age and it will be interesting to see the "reactions" of the guys to her. If they consider her "deformed" they will not accept her in the cave. So far she isn't "marginalised" by the colony, attacked or in any way mistreated.

As I said I did buy her knowingly, she is a bubbly little fish and I don't think it would be right to isolate her.

I usually notice which female goes in with which male - my most prolific pair consists of an F0 male with an F1 female. If I see her frequenting a bloke's cave I will take the eggs and see if the trait is passed on to the fry or not. It will be interesting to find out what happens.

I am just wondering if the "bullnose" trait could be possibly attributed to the father's body pressing on the fry as it develops? Has anybody had bullnoses out of an artificially hatched batch?
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Post by McEve »

Caesars wrote:If they consider her "deformed" they will not accept her in the cave.
That's not a correct assumption :)
Caesars wrote:Has anybody had bullnoses out of an artificially hatched batch?
yes
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Post by kingfisher »

Caesars wrote:I am just wondering if the "bullnose" trait could be possibly attributed to the father's body pressing on the fry as it develops? Has anybody had bullnoses out of an artificially hatched batch?
It would be really strange if the males pressing created the same disfigurements every time. Is he aiming for the forehead? If the males' pressing caused any harm at all, I would expect all kinds of disfigurements.

Lets see what we got here:
  • Bullnoses appear in both naturally hatched batches and artificially ones.
  • It happens in both soft and hard water.
  • Not all spawn in one batch becomes bullnoses, which makes it hard to think water quality has anything to do with it.
  • We get bullnoses in batches from wild caught and tank raised zebras.
  • Deformed females does not seem to deter males in other fish. Why would it in zebras?
Any other points we need to know? :)
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Caesars
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Post by Caesars »

If the trait can be found in nature (i.e. we are not "causing" it to the fish by inappropriate living conditions or husbandry) and is not hereditary, then there is no issue, at least for us. A bullnose is as good as any other fish.

I was wondering about the head as I would expect the cartilage there to be more sensitive to pressure - it is a rather large area too. But I take your point.

There have been examples of deformed females never been accepted by males (cichlids).
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Post by McEve »

Caesars wrote:If the trait can be found in nature (i.e. we are not "causing" it to the fish by inappropriate living conditions or husbandry) and is not hereditary, then there is no issue, at least for us. A bullnose is as good as any other fish.
I have to disagree with this. We don't know that it's not hereditary. It is a deformed fish anyway you look at, and nobody breeds deformed fish, no matter what type of fish we're talking about. One always breed the best individuals.

About deformed individuals being accepted as mates. Seen from natures point of view an albino is not a perfect individual, nor is a longfinned ancistrus. But they are accepted as mates :) These are just examples, there are plenty more of them.
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Post by Caesars »

McEve wrote:We don't know that it's not hereditary
That's why I said "if". My statement was conditional. Agreed, if the trait is hereditary then it's a different ball game altogether.
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Post by McEve »

Just a bit of speculating here.... It might be both enviromental and genetic, like cleft lip in people. A cleft lip can be caused by different toxic substances during early gestation, but there is also a genetic factor involved. You need to be predisposed for it in other words.

interesting reading about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleft_lip_and_palate

Interesting because this syndrome covers most of the different causes we have talked about here on the forum as to what the cause might be. Maybe we all had a bit of the truth, and just failed to put them together :)
Environmental influences may also cause, or interact with genetics to produce, orofacial clefting. Scientists have investigated seasonal causes (such as pesticide exposure); maternal diet and vitamin intake; retinoids, which are members of the vitamin A family; anticonvulsant drugs; alcohol; cigarette use; nitrate (!) compounds; organic solvents; parental exposure to lead; and illegal drugs (cocaine, crack cocaine, heroin, etc.) as teratogens that increase the possibility of clefting.

If a person is born with a cleft, the chances of that person having a child with a cleft, given no other obvious factor, rises to 1 in 14. Research continues to investigate the extent to which Folic acid can reduce the incidence of clefting.
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