BULLDOG Fry- Genetic Or Environmental

Everything you ever wanted to say about "Zebra luvin", but didn't because you thought everyone would take the mickey! Plus general topics for discussion including everything from what you feed them to your personal experiences.

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Markymole
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Post by Markymole » Sat Apr 01, 2006 8:14 pm

Cut and pasted form my other post :oops: damn im lazy :roll:
I`ve been having a good look at my babies to day and was shocked to find that out of the 36 offspring i seem to have 6-8 that seem to have Bulldog fry syndrome
I`ve been reading up on the Bulldog fry posts but would like to know if there is anymore info/thoughts on the condition??

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Post by dave » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:21 pm

Following on from the thread how old to sell.

In my first spawn, which I didn't know occurred, 2 fry appeared in the tank, from this I assume it was a natural birth one has turned out to be a stub nose ( Bull Dog ). In subsequent spawns, some natural some when the fry have been removed the trait has not repeated itself.

At this time I was getting fed up with them, thinking of selling them and letting somebody else have a go due to my lack of success, hence my tank husbandry is not what it should have been, particularly regarding water changes.

So now I have 3 bulldogs which I will grow on and try to breed.

Now the question, genetic vs environmental and what to do with any fry.

On the assumption that I have a pair, ( Breeding is sometime off but I am patient ).

Now if the young are perfect what should be done with them?

I know the immediate reaction is to cull or keep separated to live a long happy life.

So if this is the case, and we are concerned about the genetics as we all are. If it is genetics shouldn't we also isolate the parents, also all the fish from the same brood, and all subsequent broods from these adults?

As the majority are being bred from wild at the moment, and this trait appears quite a lot, guess it means a lot of fish that have been distributed are not viable.

Now if the gene is naturally occuring I think we have little to worry about, but it does create a greater emphasis on preventing inbreeding as this is likely to exagerate the effect of this gene.

If environmental then again no problem.

I also breed Cyprichomis Leptosoma from wild, and 1 fish in every 5 or 6 broods is deformed in the mouth, this I presume to be genetic as it repeats itself.

Any thoughts welcome.

Dave
On this basis

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Post by McEve » Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:38 pm

Noe that quite a few has breed the Zebra, how many, if any, snubnoses did you get pr spawn? How many pr X spawn?

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Post by dave » Sun Jun 18, 2006 1:09 am

I have bred 40 so far, 6 spawns and one snubnose.

The snubnose was 1 of the first 2 fish I bred and to be honest I didn't notice the spawn 2 fry just appeared in the tank.

At this time I was getting disheartened with L46's, and water changes of 25% once a week and this is only approximate.

Since this first spawn a 30% water change usually every 2 days but never more than 3 days elapses without a water change.

Since I've adopted this regime no more snub noses, but not bred since mid March, probably too many water changes.

I would lean to water quality causing this deformity.

Another factor that should also be taken into account is that I use undergravel filtration, and these if not properly maintained degrade fairly quickly. Leading up to the first spawn the undergravel was probably not maintained to the standard required.

Well I now have 3 snub noses, 2 I purchased so I'll see what happens if they breed.

Dave

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Post by McEve » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:41 pm

I've looked a bit more imto genetics and inheretance, as I have one year-and half old female myself :( Sort of set the interest in finding this thing out going again :roll:

From what I can figure out is if two snubnoses spawn, and this is a recessive gene, than there's only a 25% chanse the offspring will be normal.

Genes explained
25% chanse

I guess you can't compare people and fish like this, but it's all I have right now. Got to do some more digging.

I just can't see why it should be enviromental when none of the 10 explanations I've heard so far for this being enviromental, would apply to fish in the wild. And they are found in the nature too..

Can somebody cross two snubnoses so that we can put this one to rest once and for all :lol:

Here's my snubnose, a year and half old female. She didn't show the trait until recently:

Image

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Post by Barbie » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:05 pm

I've had 75 fry, at last count, and have 7 snubnoses I've been growing out. The oldest ones are starting to fill with eggs, but I have no idea how far they are from spawning. I intend to set them up in a tank of their own. They're from two unrelated groups of fish so crossing them together shouldn't be of any concern. I've had the same parents have everything from NO snub noses in a spawn to 5 in a single batch. I honestly do believe it has nothing to do with genetics and everything to do with how we "raise" them. Guess in the coming year or two I'll be finding out for sure ;).

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Post by dave » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:05 pm

Lets just suppose this is a recessive gene, then we must presume that it occurs throughout the wild population, as the regularity it occurs is just too frequent for it to be in isolated fish.

It is unlikely that the source of your fish, my fish in the UK or people who have experienced this trait in the USA is likely to be the same.

Another assumption I will make here is that all the fish that are producing snub noses are wild. So why are there varying percentages of snub noses in broods?

Perhaps there is an environmental trigger, the concentration of which determines the percentage of snub noses.

This is not calling into question anyones fish hubandry.

If people have ever obtained an analysis from their water provider they surely will be surprised by the number of dissolved substances we don't test for. Combine this with the organic compounds we add in the form of food, and the fish produce in waste. Combine the above who knows what is produced.

Water is the variable for everybody, even at different times of the day.

Little is known about organo metallic compounds, perhaps with the exception of Methyl Mecury in Sweden.

The above are just thoughts, and if it is a trigger or environmental this could also be applied to normal genes as well as recessive genes.

If it is a recessive gene, it is obviously fairly common, and this will soon become apparent when people start breeding related F1's and F2's.

And finally snub nose males may not even be able to look after the eggs and fry.

So many questions.

Dave

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Post by McEve » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:12 pm

Barbie wrote: I've had the same parents have everything from NO snub noses in a spawn to 5 in a single batch.
Can you remember doing anything different when you got the 5 snubs than you otherwise do? Holiday? Sick? Something that would have made your tankmaintanance different from normal?

Dave, the fact that it happens so irregularily is not even an indication that it isn't genetic.

I would just be so happy to rule out genetic, otherwise the market will soon be flodded with little pekingeser-Zebras :roll:

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Post by dave » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:28 pm

Well I think I said it happens fairly regularly.

Other fish were I have seen a repeated deformity are Optopharynx lithobates and placidichromis electra, the mouth leans to one side.

I also know that this can be bred out.

I do not advocate releasing snub noses into the hobby, and I won't.

But I do know I'm a fish keeper and that is all.

When I proposed people donating fish to Zoos, all I met with is a negative response, and I offered to organise it in the UK if at all possible.

It is.

While my belief is that the hobbyist can work out how to breed most fish, when there is a problem we are a bit lost. Do any of us ever call a vet for a sick fish, or can we ever find one with the expertise?

Now my belief is that we should donate fish to Zoos, not all will accept, but at least if a difficulty arises they have the expertise to analyse DNA and provide an answer to any problems that arise.

Now if we really want an answer to questions that we do not know the answer to, replies such as Zoos don't release them, better off in the hand of the hobbyist in my mind is a selfish approach, are we thinking of preserving the fish or keeping it in the hobby. These are two entirely different things.

Dave

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Post by Barbie » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:07 pm

I can't remember doing anything different, no. By the time I noticed it I couldn't remember if that was the spawn I took a bit early and had any trouble getting out of the cave or not. I tracked when they were spawned and which parents and what not, but I did not note every single thing I did with the spawns as time went on. At that point I didn't realize I needed to! I'm not fussing with this current batch of fry at all and I'm allowing them to stay in the tank with the parents. He's the male that had the largest amount of snubs and one of the two females with him is his favorite from the larger tank, so odds are good they're the same parents. Time will tell!

Dave, like I mentioned the last time the subject of the zoos came up, I've been working with one zoo and I know of 2 others that have breeding groups of zebras they're working with. These fish aren't on the verge of disappearing forever if something isn't done about handing all of them over to zoos or my opinion might differ some. For now, doing the best we can to keep them available for the public is actually benefitting their chances for long term survival, no? I realize it's something you feel strongly about, obviously, but we all have to do what we can and feel comfortable with. I go do presentations and spread every bit of information about spawning the fish that I can. I answer questions from all over the world and I hook sincere hobbyists up with people that have fry when I can. If, at some point, the Public Aquarium near me decides they want to work with the fish on a larger level, I'll be happy to help them out. For now, they've got a few issues they're working out to keep the ones they already have happy.

I am one of the few people that does have a vet to help me diagnose fish I guess, although a friend that does pond consultation is best with the problems requiring microscopic viewing and then we figure out what meds are needed and show the vet the findings. There are very few vets that specialize in aquatic life forms working with the public, IME. Most people don't spend the money on their fish, so vets don't have a large experience base to draw from in their education. They are out there, they're just few and far between.

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Post by dave » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:05 pm

Thank you for that lengthy answer and explanation.

Also for once I have no real issues with what you say.

My view on Zoos is fairly strong, but I have never advocated that all fish should go to Zoos, only that if several succesful breeders donated one or two fish to Zoos, it would be beneficial, a diverse gene pool in captivity.

Not to lose the thread this is posted on completely, I tend to lean on the side that snubnoses are caused by environmental conditions, in particular cave shape.

I also agree that the numbers in captivity are more than enough to ensure that there is absolutely no possibility of this fish disappearing from the hobby ( In the wild it is somewhat different ). Within 15 miles of where I live I know of a colony of 7 wild and a colony of 12 wild, in addition to my 14 wild.

If we agree to agree on the above, and there are varying reasons for people keeping this fish, the view that they are conserving this fish is a misconception. As many state on this forum that conservation is one of the reasons for keeping them, perhaps it should be emphasised that preservation in captivity is not really an issue.

I know I may be fighting an uphill battle, but by exchange, purchase and careful monitored breeding I hope to maintain a group of varied genes. Each additional line I get, I will in turn provide a couple to Chester Zoo, who in turn when they get a surplus will offer them to the Zoos in the UK and then Europe, this is their policy.

I will also be releasing fish into the hobby, this is likely to be local though.

This is an approach that I and a number of others have adopted, hopefully to keep genetic deformities to a minimum, and also modifications.

We just ask ourselves if Discus had not been exported for 25 years, would anybody have ever seen one in the Wild Form except from pictures.

Dave

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Post by McEve » Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:38 pm

I've heard of a different theory. smebody reckon it's a matter of the extremeties not getting enough oxygen at the time of incubation and hatching, and that will lead to snubnose and/or crocked fins.

Sounds plausible, until you see that some don't develop the snubnose until the age of upto 8 months. Damage already done at an early age not showing until later on could be explained though I'm sure...

can anyone think of a human trait that is due to lack of oxygen but not showing as late as the teenage? smoking mother? which they now say can cause everything from ADHD to milder inability to consentrate...?

I know that fish don't smoke :lol: but the lack of oxygen thing might be a pararell? Dad not being able to fan ALL the eggs as god as he would need to?

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Post by Raul-7 » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:27 pm

I was mentioning this theory to Kevin and he made an interesting point, if the case was lack of oxygen wouldn't all of the brood turn out snub-nosed? Or even more likely die?


BTW, could you make this topic a stickey?

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Post by McEve » Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:40 pm

I noticed something while doing a "spring clean" in the fry tank the other day. I cought all the fry and adults in a container to get a proper clean of the tanks. All fry lined up against the side of the container I put them in, constantly bumping against it to get out. Constantly rubbed their nose against the side of the container.

Image

Could it be as simple as that they damage their nose if kept in a small container without adequate shelter to make them stay away from the sides of the container?

I got one snubnose last year, I took them all and kept them in a fry trap. Only 9 survived all together from three spawns.

This year I left them alone, and I honestly can't see any deformities on them at all, and I got 29 survivors from 4 spawns. And these guys just look so much better than the ones from last year! Much more lively, hungry and much better colours. Fins up all the time, playfighting and venturing out in the "big open" scavenging for food.

Could it be this easy? Bumping your nose against an "invisible" wall damaging the nose?

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Post by eklikewhoa » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:20 pm

i dont think its the "invisible" wall cause i got mine the other day and they were in a yellow bucket drip acclimating and all of them were the same way, right up against the walls.

i have been thinking about it and fish like any other animal with feelings will know that it hurts to bump against a wall but if young enough were the bone or stiff internals that make the form of a fish havent developed yet then it would be susceptable to "forming". im thinking the way the male "rolls" the eggs has more to do with it than one might think or even the "wiggler" stage itself. maybe its the water current forcing itself into the cave and pushing the wigglers up against the back wall or what about cave size? in the wild im sure there arent always a perfect size cave for the pleco to breed in so maybe if they were a little more room so that the male isnt squished into the cave perhaps?

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