BULLDOG Fry- Genetic Or Environmental

Everything you ever wanted to say about "Zebra luvin", but didn't because you thought everyone would take the mickey! Plus general topics for discussion including everything from what you feed them to your personal experiences.

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McEve
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Post by McEve » Wed Feb 23, 2005 6:54 pm

Thanks Des, I just checked it out. It does however seem to use the same engine as Babelfish, but have a limit of 300 characters.

Thanks for the suggestion though :)

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:39 pm

This discussion:

http://www.l46-forum.de/viewtopic.php?t ... r+schnauze

is not very juicy and rather uninteresting - no new perceptions.

And the discussion at L-Welse com:

http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4289

contains the same theories discussed here in this forum.
Do wild caught Hypancistrus have bull heads? - Nobody has seen a wild caught fish with bullhead.

Reasons? No answer.

When does the bull head symptom occur? At larvae or at young normal fish? - at young, normal fish, not yet with larvae.

Water parameters, Nitrate, Nitrit, Ammonia, ...? No contenting answer

Bacteria on glass of breeding tank without gravel? No answer

Better results if the fry is raised in tanks with sand on the bottom? Some tell, they have better results since they raise fry in tanks with sand.

Food? Vitamins? Trace elements? No answer

Is the "bull head symtom" a result of a genetic defect or a result of husbandary? No contenting answer, if it´s a rezessive hereditary disease, fishermen should also catch some fish with defect in South America and at least some should rarely be imported.

Do Hypancistrus have bullheads in their habitat, too, and if yes, in which case they are handicapped in comparison to normal young fish, so that they do not grow up to maturity? - Would be interesting to examine, but how?

Bull head symtom also does appear at Loricariinae, e.g. Loricaria simillima - look at this picture from user Michael: http://l-welse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5697



Well, if you want a translation word by word, tell it - and give some time to me to do so Image
Walter

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:48 pm

Hi,
McEve wrote: There's been a wild caught speciement foung according to DATZ.
oh...
Do you know the issue? Then I could take a look, I do not remind this.

Do you think there might something to the mercury damaging the DNA theory?
Well, it´s not important, what I think ;) - I would like to know the reason, but I do not.

But I do not _think_ so, because if this would be the reason, this problem would not accumulate with fry bred in captifity.
And, e.g., Rio Tapajos (Peckoltia sp. L 134) did have much more digging for gold than Rio Xingu - why do L 134 not show this damage?
Or do you think it's cause is something entirely different?
Pffft.... ;)
I think, it´s a problem of husbandry, but I do not know.

Why does it accumulate with Hypancistrus?


Similar questions:
Why do Baryancistrus, Panaque, ... do not grow to full length reached in nature, if held in aquaria?
Walter

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McEve
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Post by McEve » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:09 pm

Walter wrote:
McEve wrote: There's been a wild caught speciement foung according to DATZ.
oh...
Do you know the issue? Then I could take a look, I do not remind this.
It doesn't say in the post, all we have is this:
kgroenhoej wrote:
Erwin wrote:the pictures of the L18-mutants (p.43) were all taken from wild caught animals. Aquarium Glaser, where the pictures were made, received these fish all at one time from the normal exporter of this species from Brazil. They even came together with the high-fin mutant of L81 (p.79), which made me call an online-article about them "Quasimodo and Esmeralda meet Jar Jar Binks".

http://www.aquanet.de/beitraege/Fachbei ... 800666.asp
Walter wrote:
McEve wrote:

Do you think there might something to the mercury damaging the DNA theory?
Well, it´s not important, what I think ;) - I would like to know the reason, but I do not.

But I do not _think_ so, because if this would be the reason, this problem would not accumulate with fry bred in captifity.
Oh.. but a damaged DNA could follow for generations ?
Walter wrote: And, e.g., Rio Tapajos (Peckoltia sp. L 134) did have much more digging for gold than Rio Xingu - why do L 134 not show this damage?


They don't? :shock: Do they have any other known malformations?
Walter wrote:
McEve wrote: Or do you think it's cause is something entirely different?
Pffft.... ;)
I think, it´s a problem of husbandry, but I do not know.

Why does it accumulate with Hypancistrus?
That's a good question, but does it only affect Hypancistrus, and not Ancistus as well?

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:18 pm

Hi,
McEve wrote: Oh.. but a damaged DNA could follow for generations ?
yes, it could...
But what´s with the frequent occuring of this damage at different Loricariinae?
And what´s with bull head Hypancistrus inspector "L 201"? They live in Rio Orinoco - as far as I know there has never been a gold rush in Rio Orinoco basin and so no mercury contamination of these fish likely.
Mercury pollution problems are known from southern and western tributaries of the Amazon, as far as I know - Rio Madeira basin, Ucayali, Xingu, Tapajos, ...
Walter

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:25 pm

Hi again,
McEve wrote:
Walter wrote: And, e.g., Rio Tapajos (Peckoltia sp. L 134) did have much more digging for gold than Rio Xingu - why do L 134 not show this damage?


They don't? :shock: Do they have any other known malformations?
I do not know of these problems with Peckolita.
I breed L 134 regulary for nearly 3 years now, and I never had only one fish with such a damage.
And I do not know any other Peckoltia breeders telling of this problem.
One reason could be, that Hypancistrus breeding is much more common than breeding Peckoltia... but probably this is not the cause.
Walter

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Post by McEve » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:25 pm

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer Walter. Upon reading my previous reply I see it might look a bit argumentative. I don't mean it like that, I'm just very keen on finding out what triggers this deformity.

You have shed new light on the issue, no doubt about that!

So, no mercury in Rio Orinoco, but still bullheads. *tearing my hear out*

I have been spared for raising a mops (that dog is called mops in Norwegian too, it does look like these fish don't it :lol: ) But I don't think I'm any better than the next guy/gal when it comes to waterchanges. I do however have a substrate in my tanks..... A mystery it is.... I can't think of any other theory right now. Seems like you guys have been through the same ones as we have here, and none of us are any the wiser :?

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:36 pm

I missed this:
McEve wrote: That's a good question, but does it only affect Hypancistrus, and not Ancistus as well?
Is it?
I have never seen or only heared of any Ancistrus with this damage - and the "common" Ancistrus has been bred many tousand times im tanks...
Walter

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Post by McEve » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:42 pm

Looks like Ancistrus are affected as well...
kgroenhoej wrote: Here's a pic of a Bulldog-ancistrus (I don't know if the fish is wildcaught or tankbreed)

Image

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Walter
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Post by Walter » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:11 pm

Ups,
sorry, afflicted with blindness... Image
Walter

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jeroentje
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Post by jeroentje » Wed Jun 01, 2005 1:14 am

ow noo, now I read this topic I maybe know why my babyzebra died, he/she had a bulldognose :x
I thougt this was normal by young zebra's

Image

Image

now I'm going back to the store to tell them about this problem.
I bought it for 120 euro's

I hope we'll find out some more things about this strange happening.

greetz jeroen

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Post by Tom2600 » Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:11 am

Hi

Sorry you lost this zebra. Sadly, the fish shop sold you a deformed zebra. IMO bulldog plecs should not even be allowed into the trade.

Regards

Tom

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Post by Rob » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:50 am

Hi jeroentje

Sorry to hear about your zebra mate. What size was it.

I'm not sure if the fact that the fry was bull-nosed would have contributed to it's death. This is something that I have seen quite a few times now, all of whom seem tosurvice, ( and will probably reside in my tanks for evermore :lol: )

How long did you have the wee guy again?

Rob
The perfect white lie..."Of course I didn't pay that much for the fish honey"

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Post by jeroentje » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:04 am

he ws 3 cm, and after 3 weeks I lost him I think.
after 2 months I empty the tank to searge him, but he/she was no more.

I can buy a new zebra for the half of the price, but if they know about the bulldog nose maybe I can get it free.

we will see about that

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Post by McEve » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:12 am

It's true as Rob stated, that they seem to be able to live perfectly normal lives even with this deformity. But I still think you should argue your point with the shop - they sold you a deformed fish without telling you. You wouldn't have been able (or should not, however you see it, discussed earlier in the thread :)) to use the fish for breeding later on for instance.

I'm sad to hear you lost him :(

Let us know how you get on!

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