What are our ambitions with L46's

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:47 pm

Cant we all just get along?

Okay, let's hold hands now... everybody sing:

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya...

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:55 pm

Andyt. wrote: You're putting me in an awkward postion crazie.eddie - I am a bleeding heart liberal and completely unused to defending capitalism!

LOL

Well, if there was a possibility of registering a zebra as pure bred aka F1 zebra, then I can see the price of the spawn to be high. But how many can warrant and say that their zebras are F1. Could you tell the difference? Would you care?

I'm just curious if the ban only goes for wild zebras and not tank bred zebras. Otherwise, if it's only a ban on wild zebras, then if the zebra prices keep increasing, I'm moving to Brazil. Get all the zebras I can from the Amazon, breed them, and sell the spawn. $$$$

As I mentioned, I'm not boycotting the purchase of the zebras. I AM buying them at the prices that everyone else is buying them for. I just don't think they are worth the price that they are being sold for. I know I'm not alone on this, though probably one of the few only speaking out. And probably the only one that is trying to do something about it.

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:11 pm

Andyt. wrote:
Cant we all just get along?
Okay, let's hold hands now... everybody sing:

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya...

LOL

I'm fine. This is a forum. Forums are made for discussions. The discussions here are mature and rational. Which allows everyone to share their opinions and views, as I did.

But people are trying to rationalize their costs becuase they spent the time raising zebras. Hey, I spend time raising my other fish and have not complained about all the money and time I spent. I do it as a hobby and the enjoyment of them. I know many marine/reef keepers who spent $5000 or more on their fish and setup.

I plan to raise zebras as a hobby as well and want to give the opportunity pleco enthusiasts (and not just the rich and wealthy) a chance to be able to afford and keep a zebra pleco. I wouldn't sell them to any smuck who knocks on my door. There's a difference between a person who comes to you and asks to buy your pretty striped fish and is willing to pay $500 for it compared to another person wanting to buy a L-46 Zebra to go along with his other plecos in his tank, and is willing to pay $25 for it.

Talk about maximize return....
Let's figure this out...
$600 estimated for 6 zebras
$50 annualy on fish food (probably a little high).
$50 Cost for time and maintenance. Can't really put an amount, but let's estimate $50 annually, since people only spend about an hour a day at the most of maintenance.
$50 Electrical and water bills. Also hard to put an amount, since people watch tv, cook, take baths in the same house, but would maybe estimate $50 annually for this.
Basically $600 for zebra and $200 annually for operation costs.

It takes 2 years to grow them to adults, so an additional $400 for operation costs. So that's $1200 operation costs for zebras to get to mature mating age.

A person gets lucky and only produce 2 fry, which are sold for $100 each. So the person is still down $1000.

They get lucky the following year and get 6 more spawn and sell them at $100 each. Therefore $600 for the revenue of the zebras sold - $1000 lost previous year + $200 annual operation cost. Still down $600 from the previous year.

The following year, again 6 more spawn at now $150, due to market increase, which were sold. So that's $900 revenue from the zebras - $600 lost from the previous year + $200 annual costs. That's a $100 profit.

So roughly 6 years until you start getting a profit. And I haven't calculated the profits of those who had spawn from 2 or more pairs of zebras. And as the business continues and keeps producing, your profits increase. As most people who own run and businesses know, you don't expect to gain profits the first few years.

Shimmy · Post by **Shimmy** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:23 pm

Do private breeders drive down the price of fish?

Take examples of many other species? Have independant breeders managed to bring prices down?

i am not saying I know the answers but I have found over the years that if there is a large demand the far east usually begins to get invovled in reproduction on a mass scale.

Difficult fish are hormone injected? Red Tailed Sharks, Clown Loaches just two examples.

How many zebras would need to be breed per annum to effectively bring prices down?

If we as a group manage to breed 5,000 per annum, do we feel that this will be enough to meet demand and subsequently reduce prices due to not only meeting demand but over supplying.

People like ourselves will continue to buy from ourselves as we are looking for quality fish, where as people who are looking just to own will only purchase when the poor strain of hormone induced fish come in from the Far East at the price they are prepared to pay.

madmoroccan · Post by **madmoroccan** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:49 pm

I find this discussion very interesting. I like the notion that reducing prices would save our favourite fish from extinction in the wild.

But the reality is that there wouldn't be much effect on the market unless eveyone adopted the same policy. That is altogether a different proposition and extremely unlikely.

Elitism is really the answer. If we keep the low fish prices amongst ourselves then maybe we could do something about this sooner rather than later.

I will have to elaborate a bit later. Feeding time.

Jojoyojimbi · Post by **Jojoyojimbi** » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:51 pm

Personally I don't think i'd sell any fry, i'd prefer to trade them with other breeders to broaden the gene pool, but i'd rather set up more breeding tanks and show tanks to display them for myself than pass them off to someone who's just going to buy one to toss into their tank and be able to say 'i've got a zebra, i'm a better collector than you'

i'm sure there would come a point where i'd want to trade off groups of fry to other people for other species but that'd be much easier to do knowing that they're going to breed them and not sell them on

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:58 am

Andyt. wrote:
Cant we all just get along?
Okay, let's hold hands now... everybody sing:

Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya...

I knew I should have mentioned Rodney King.

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:46 am

As I mentioned, I'm not boycotting the purchase of the zebras. I AM buying them at the prices that everyone else is buying them for. I just don't think they are worth the price that they are being sold for. I know I'm not alone on this, though probably one of the few only speaking out. And probably the only one that is trying to do something about it.

Your not alone in that thought. I will not spend $200-$350 for zebs when I have kids that need the money for other things. Yes I would like to have them and breed them. I also would like to help increase the number of them so we can all have them. But at what point do you actually sit back and say "Wow! That just seems crazy."

Will I charge this price when Im successful at breeding? I dont think I will. To me just the simple pleasure of watching the fry grow and know that I had a hand in it will be enough. To achieve a goal I have set for myself. What better reward is there? And this is the lesson I will pass on to my children. Like it or not, thats the person I am!

eklikewhoa · Post by **eklikewhoa** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:19 am

i have paid $5k for a young asian gold/red arowana that was in the family for 13yrs.... was offered a lot more when it was fully grown ( 2'L, ~5"w) and never sold it. it ended up dieing from a pleco bone that it ate a year earlier.

that fish never reproduced, ate anything you put in with it and required imo more attention than most other fish.

$200 for a zebra isnt much money when you take everything into consideration. they are beautiful animals and the market is there, hell if the world was flooded with them do you really think the demand or intrest would be this high? it would be like getting a silver arowana.

im a mechanic and thats how i support my hobbies and in my field right now there is a lack of well trained technicians knowing the up to date things they are doing with cars so the labor rate has increased as of late. its the market and to think that the lesser fortunate countries is where we are getting some of these "rare" things. hell some of them consider what we prize food. take frontosa's for instance, zaires and such demand a higher price due to their lack of availability but in that country those people eat them for meals.

i personally have worked very hard for what i want and right now that is some zebras. the money could be well spent elsewhere but my personal needs right now is just that, some zebras.

happy to say that i have quite a few in the process

crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:04 am

Yeah, but eventually, there will no longer be any zebras in the wild. They will be in our homes. Who will be the first one to let them go to get them back to nature?

chanettt · Post by **chanettt** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:05 am

if you want Arowanan to breed then need to put more than ten or twenty couple into a pond. you may lucky to get one couple breed. if you try to put 2 or 3 in your tank then they will fight til the other die... that's why this fish is so expensive. some cost more than 25K.
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crazie.eddie · Post by **crazie.eddie** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:25 am

25K???

rhino · Post by **rhino** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:34 am

$200 for a zebra isnt much money when you take everything into consideration. they are beautiful animals and the market is there, hell if the world was flooded with them do you really think the demand or intrest would be this high? it would be like getting a silver arowana.

I considered it for a short time. $200 is still a lot to me. And when you think of me being a novice, spending that money and making a fatal mistake (which anyone can do by the way) really makes that value a lot higher. All this said, I am in the process of setting up another aquarium right now. That is why I am here in this forum. Getting advice on the proper setup and learning all I can.

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:17 pm

$25k is cheap!

Try and buy a koi from one of the premium Japanese koi farms; the cheap ones start at $10,000. You want to buy a winner of the All Japan Combined Nishikigoi Show? No problem, just be prepared to pay about $500,000.

According to the Texas Koi Association the record Koi sale is $850,000. I have heard rumors, however, of Koi being sold for over $1 million each.

Expensive and cheap are both relative.

Andyt. · Post by **Andyt.** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:28 pm

$200 is still a lot to me. And when you think of me being a novice, spending that money and making a fatal mistake (which anyone can do by the way) really makes that value a lot higher. All this said, I am in the process of setting up another aquarium right now. That is why I am here in this forum. Getting advice on the proper setup and learning all I can.

All of my sarcasm aside, I salute Rhino. That is a commendable view. Really, money should be secondary to whether or not you can provide the proper care for zebras to not only survive but also to thrive. Hopefully, reproduce as well.

I'm coming round to the view that elitism which preserves the species is a good thing. I don't think selling a single zebra to someone, unless they intend to integrate the newcomer into a breeding situation, is a good idea.