My juvenile Zebs from Andrew Coxon

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John
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Post by John »

Looking at those pictures i don't think those fry are snubnosed, however the pectoral finns of the 2 fish at bottom of pic 1 are indeed imo underdeveloped/deformed.
All you have to do is look at the 2 fish on top of pic 1 to see how the pectoral fins should look like.
Better pictures of the fishes and sideshots of the heads would be usefull for further conclusions.

Hopefully further contributions on this subject are constructive....
Greetings,
John
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Post by Zebrapl3co »

andrewcoxon wrote:1 month old fry.....?! :shock: these fish are 5-6 months old.....
LOL, my bad, I though they where 1 month old frys. Good to know that some one is selling them for the benefit of the fry rather than the money flashing if front of their face.

As for the pectoral fins. Wow, you guys, sometimes I just have to pause and wonder...
Is there a dictinary some where that says what a zebra pleco is supposed to look like?
Is there an internationally recongize measurement of the perfect zebra pleco?
Come on, think about it!
If you state that they have shorter pectoral fins, then yes, they are slightly shorter. But that's normal if you think about it. From a batch of 14 you get 4 or 5 fry with shorter perctoral fins. Oh but wait! What is this amazing discouvery here. From a batch of 14 fry 4 or 5 might turn out to be females too! Wow, that's an amazing co-incident!

Also, on an added note. If you bother to check the human race. Yes, you are one of them. Some people who stretch their arms out form a square and some form a rectangle. I hope those people who makes a rectangle are the ones who are deform because I am a square. So my next question would be, which of you guys are deform and defective in the forum?
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Post by Jo's Zebs »

These zebs will change a fare bit over the next 4 years that is one thing you can be sure of. If they are healthy happy and thriving is that not good enougth. I think in this case comparing the photos provided they are not snub nose.
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Plastic Mac
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Post by Plastic Mac »

While I have no intention of getting into a debate as to whether they are snub-nose or not as the photos shown aren't imo definitive proof (side shots would be required) I would agree with Dave that one or two imo seem to give the impression that they maybe snub-noses. Of course the camera may well be exaggerating it out of proportion as Dave stated in his first post...

And while I won't take sides either...I personally don't sell any of my fry until they are at least 12 months old. Giving this period of time for growth means any snub-noses have plenty of time appear and be weeded out before any are sold on. Hence I have never once had anyone claim mine to be snub-nosed....I only wish others would sell them at 12 month age or after rather than the 3-6 they seems to be regularly sold at.
they are about 6 months old and about 1.5 inches in length
I assume that length is TL?
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Plastic Mac
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Post by Plastic Mac »

As for the pectoral fins. Wow, you guys, sometimes I just have to pause and wonder...
Is there a dictinary some where that says what a zebra pleco is supposed to look like?
Is there an internationally recongize measurement of the perfect zebra pleco?
Come on, think about it!
If you state that they have shorter pectoral fins, then yes, they are slightly shorter. But that's normal if you think about it. From a batch of 14 you get 4 or 5 fry with shorter perctoral fins. Oh but wait! What is this amazing discouvery here. From a batch of 14 fry 4 or 5 might turn out to be females too! Wow, that's an amazing co-incident!

Also, on an added note. If you bother to check the human race. Yes, you are one of them. Some people who stretch their arms out form a square and some form a rectangle. I hope those people who makes a rectangle are the ones who are deform because I am a square. So my next question would be, which of you guys are deform and defective in the forum?
No-one is stating that there is a prefect measurement but if you're trying to imply that every variation in a certain species is 'normal' then you are sadly wrong.
Deformaties are as much a part of nature as natural variations but in nature these deformaties would be quickly removed by predation. They are rarely allowed to survive and the same ethos should be applied to tank bred fish too.
In fact, I was reading this week (in the New Scientist I think) an article about a problem with wild fish stocks. Fishermen when catching fish, are thowing back the 'weak' fish into the sea...and keeping the best and strongest for sale back at market. It has now been noticed that certain species are 'weaker' than they were previously because the best and strongest fish have been removed from the 'pool' and only the weak and deformed fish are left to reproduce resulting in a potentially devastating affect on certain wild fish stocks.
The same problem is imo perfectly capable of reproducing itself in the aquarium market (and probably more likely infact) if breeders don't take the time and care to work with only the best offspring...
Anything less than perfect should not be sold imo.

Plastic Mac
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Post by andrewcoxon »

these fish are perfect! i should know as iv bred and raised them myself.

the one from the bottom left dave stated was definatley a snub nose is pictured again from a different angle in last picture paul posted and clearly shows a perfect fish....

what annoys me is not someone accusing me of selling snub nosed fish.... (well maybe a little bit!) but its the way, (dave in particular) words his posts.... he is so agressive in what he says and words it as if he is right and everyone else is wrong 100% of the time.

as for selling fry at 6 months, i dont see a problem with that at all. the fish are big enough to travel well, feeding well and are really healthy.

plastic mac,

perhaps you have enough tanks and space to keep fish for a year but plz get off your soap box and dont judge me or my situation. lots of people sell fry at 6 months, and some even earlier.

its no wonder this forum is going down hill, its beginning to become a hostile and unpleasent place to come. who wants to post on a forum only to be accused, judged and flamed....?

iv been a member of this forum for 2 years now and i have always conducted myself well and tried to help people when i can, but now i find myself been attacked and my repuatation being rubbished all because a couple of ppl are judging me, my motives & morals on a photo taken from a dodgey angle...

regards.

andy
Last edited by andrewcoxon on Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Plastic Mac
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Post by Plastic Mac »

plastic mac,

perhaps you have enough tanks and space to keep fish for a year but plz get off your soap box and dont judge me or my situation. lots of people sell fry at 6 months, and some even earlier.

its no wonder this forum is going down hill, its beginning to become a hostile and unpleasent place to come. who wants to post on a forum only to be accused, judged and flamed....?
Actually if this place is going down hill it's more to attitudes like the one your showing now rather than anyone elses. Perhaps you should leave this thread to those than that chat and discuss without throwing accusations at others just for saying something you don't agree with. For the record life is like that, so learn todeal with it.

I made a post which didn't make any accusations at anyone in paticular, just my personal thoughts of which a forum, like this one, is a place to share them. Please state where I judged/flamed/accused YOU or your situation or even got on my soap box? When you realise I haven't/didn't you might then get of yours...

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Post by Plastic Mac »

I've deleted your post in this thread as it's no longer about the subject as hand but has instead, at least for you, turned into personal vendetta. I would ask that you don't post in this thread again.

If this thread diverts anymore than it has already it shall be closed.

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andrewcoxon
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Post by andrewcoxon »

LOL what right do you have to delete my post..?! it was neither offensive or deconstructive... and was EXACTLY about the issue in hand. i was simply making my point and you didnt like it..
Last edited by andrewcoxon on Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zebrapl3co »

!.... erh ... I dont' want to to get tangle in the personal "attack" issue. But can we say that the zebra pleco in the picture are not sub-nose or deform and leave it at that?

andrewcoxon, I don't think it was an attack on you personally. I think tnat any one of the other pleco breeders who posted a picture taken at an odd angle would've end up in your shoes.

I think the bigger queston in every breeders mind now a days is that every one is scare of breeding and own a deform zebra pleco because they are so rare and hard to find. Once you've gone down a bad branch it's nearly impossible to go back. In addition to this, there is always the threat of endangerment looming ommiously. It's just that your picture happens to be in the wrong place (actually not even your picture) which triggers these questions that everybody have been wondering but don't have the guts to post or say it right out.

It would be a real shame to see this thread closed as it's open up alot of things that are worth debating.
Plastic Mac wrote:No-one is stating that there is a prefect measurement but if you're trying to imply that every variation in a certain species is 'normal' then you are sadly wrong.
Deformaties are as much a part of nature as natural variations but in nature these deformaties would be quickly removed by predation. They are rarely allowed to survive and the same ethos should be applied to tank bred fish too....
Yes, I am saying that any 'normal' variation is OK. What's wrong with that? Exactly, who die and made us the zebra Gods? Just because I can breed them does not make me their god. I have no right to determine what a zebra pleco should or should not look like or what is or is not acceptable.

I've breed alot of zebra and that's all I know. I know they strut when they are angry and are claiming their cave. I know some basic kind of court ship movement. But that's about all I know. I still know nothing when it comes to understanding the zebra pleco. Have any body answer these questions?

- How do you know what they are suppose or not supposed to look like in the dark?
- How do you tell if one patern is bad and another is good and manage to hide them from predators?
- Do we even know of any other animals or plecos that likes to prey on zebra plecos?
- Does a female select her mate or does the male select who he wants to let in his cave.
- Does the female entice the male or does the male attrack the female to his cave?
- why does some fry get kicked out of the cave while others remain in the cave.
- why does the dad reject some fry and the mon accepts it.
- why are some fry rejected by both parrents when it looks exactly like the parent with no visible traces of deformaties.
- why are the fry rejected by both the alpha and the queen but accepted by a third male?
- why are rejected fry growing outside the cave much bigger than the rest of the batch that share the cave?
- why do some fry grow faster than others?
- Are these communal fish that form a community and care for each other's fry? (actually I know the answer to this)
- How does a fry get adopted by an adult?
- at what age does the fry get kicked out.
- how many fry can you fit in a cave? (lol, there has to be limit)

I can go on and on and I think most of you can't even answer 1/2 of these questions with certainty. And yet here we are, dictating what a zebra pleco should look like without asking what the zebra thinks.
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Post by John »

Andrew a EDIT was in place here so i edited your post, please think twice before posting like that, let's keep this subject constructive.
Greetings,
John
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Hi

Post by dave »

Well here I have stated an opinion and the s*** hit the fan.

If an individual thinks it's personal, then so be it, it's not, but people can interpret things however they want, freedom of speech and thankfully more so freedom of thought.

Most impotantly, Paul who started the thread, how does he feel? I bought 5 snubnoses 2 years ago, I wasn't happy.

PM waits 12 months to sell, I sell earlier, but people are offered a sale or return, yet to have one returned.

Maybe not, how about the fish, if inbreeding is to occur their traits will only be exagerated, hence the need to only release fish that resemble the wild stock onto the open market.

Peace and Love to all.

Hail Jah and Rastafari

Dave
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Post by andrewcoxon »

hi dave,

everyone has a right to their opinion and thats fine, but what annoys me is the way you go about expressing yours.

you say those fish ARE (which imply's you are 100% sure) snubnosed. you cant be sure because you havent seen them so perhaps you should think more carefully about the way you word things.

Im sorry for losing my temper but this whole thing has really wound me up, these are the first fry i have ever sold and iv spent over 2 years getting myself and my fish to this point. im proud of my fish and what i have acheived so naturally im protective over them. especially when i know what people are saying is wrong and no-one seems to be listening to me.

also for the record, as soon as dave implied they were snub's in his first post i contacted paul and told him if he wasnt 100% happy with the fish i would either give him a full refund or swap them for different fish. he refused and said he was more than happy with them...


thanks
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Post by smithrc »

sounds like good after sales support to me....

I'd feel exactly the same as Andrew if I was in his shoes. I've not sold any of my fry yet - one of the fears i have is being judged by people for doing wrong - one way or another. :roll:

Dave you say "if inbreeding is to occur their traits will only be exaggerated"

If someone is going to buy from one source and breed siblings directly then somewhere along the line problems MAY occur. just as breeding unrelated zebs, there are always hiccups in nature. the stub noses you got a year ago - are they at an age where they could breed?

There have been no results yet (that I'm aware of) that prove if they are genetically or environmentally caused. so it would be good to see the outcome.

Again - if a zeb has variations in fin shape - we cant say if its genetic or not at this early stage....
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After Sales Support

Post by PaulH196 »

All,

I thank everyone for their opinions that have been expressed throughout this post.

I posted the photo's because I was proud to get my first Zebra's, I never thought that it would lead to the heated debate that has developed.

Andrew was very good, and as he mentioned he was happy to give me my money back or exchange the young zebra's for others, I did not mention this before as it was a matter between me and Andrew. I was pleased to have this offer but have no need to take advantage of it, the young zebra's are fine. When they get a bit older I will take some better photo's and we can all see how they have developed.

Regards

Paul
Regards

PaulH
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