apologies if you've seen this on another forum
opinions??David
sex these zebras please
sex these zebras please
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v454/ ... 6froms.jpg
apologies if you've seen this on another forum opinions??
David
apologies if you've seen this on another forum
opinions??David
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Dr. P
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I wouldn't like to guess. I recon with closer, larger photos the others will have a good shot at it tho.
Very cool shot tho, you have a group of beuties there. I do notice 2 of the group have kinda shorter, stumpy noses. Do you have more photos? Possibly from side on?
Very cool shot tho, you have a group of beuties there. I do notice 2 of the group have kinda shorter, stumpy noses. Do you have more photos? Possibly from side on?
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Hi
I would say all five of the large Zebras are male, and probably the smaller fish to the right as well.
I would say 90% sure the smallest is a female.
Thats my guess. I personally would probably not buy the deformed plecs. I certianly wouldn't recommend breeding from any deformed fish.
Regards
Tom
I would say all five of the large Zebras are male, and probably the smaller fish to the right as well.
I would say 90% sure the smallest is a female.
Thats my guess. I personally would probably not buy the deformed plecs. I certianly wouldn't recommend breeding from any deformed fish.
Regards
Tom
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Dr. P
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It does look so from the pic. Take a read of this post in another section of the forum....
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281
http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=281
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Dr. P
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I aint no expert mate, but it does look like it. Not a problem I have read that much into either. I am sure others on the forum will have their say soon enough.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news man
EDIT: You say you are tied to buying these fish. Do you think the seller would supply side on photos of the 2 in question before the transaction is completed. Do you know if these fish are wild or tank raised? I'd be worried that they could be related and may carry the supposed 'bad gene' even tho not all of them seem to suffer from this.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news man
EDIT: You say you are tied to buying these fish. Do you think the seller would supply side on photos of the 2 in question before the transaction is completed. Do you know if these fish are wild or tank raised? I'd be worried that they could be related and may carry the supposed 'bad gene' even tho not all of them seem to suffer from this.
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I wasn't "locked into" buying them...I had the option of backing out...They're being sold as a group...I plan on still buying them knowing full well what I'm buying after examining the pictures...Worst case scenario, they carry something genetic,(but I've heard some pretty strong arguments against that from someone totally un-connected to the seller who also breeds them)...I've got some fry from a third un-related breeder who's fish had deformed fins that are now in hindsight clearly the result of environment,(several spawns from the same parent shave no deformities) rather than genetics...So, I don't think I'm entirely convinced that the genetics argument is any more than "opinion" at this point rather than experience(re:the other thread)...From the pictures they look to be healthy fish, and I can still enjoy them as such...David
p.s. they're tank-raised
p.p.s I will take plenty of pictures when they arrive, and keep you posted..
p.s. they're tank-raised
p.p.s I will take plenty of pictures when they arrive, and keep you posted..
Hi David,
I would be interested to hear what environmental factors could cause the bulldog shaped deformities seen in a few Zebra plecs? I personally cannot think of any.
I would also be curious to know where you are getting them from? i.e. are they from the same breeder that Wandj's tank bred zebras are from? Just a thought.
I would say the deformities are almost certainly due to genetics. All animals produce genetic mutations and some species produce the same types of mutations due to their genetic make-up.
I therefore hypothesize;
1) We do not see (or very rarely see) deformed zebra plecs in the trade because they would be killed or thrown into the river. There would be no market for deformed plecs i.e. importers would not tolerate deformed fish, assuming us buyers would not either.
2) In the wild genetically weak fish would not survive through natural selection of the strongest over the weakest.
There is obsolutely nothing wrong in keeping these zebras but whoever is breeding and selling them should have culled these deformed fish before they got to any reasonable size, and they certainly shouldn't be selling them on! Irresponsible to produce and pass on any deformed fish IMO.
Regards
Tom
I would be interested to hear what environmental factors could cause the bulldog shaped deformities seen in a few Zebra plecs? I personally cannot think of any.
I would also be curious to know where you are getting them from? i.e. are they from the same breeder that Wandj's tank bred zebras are from? Just a thought.
I would say the deformities are almost certainly due to genetics. All animals produce genetic mutations and some species produce the same types of mutations due to their genetic make-up.
I therefore hypothesize;
1) We do not see (or very rarely see) deformed zebra plecs in the trade because they would be killed or thrown into the river. There would be no market for deformed plecs i.e. importers would not tolerate deformed fish, assuming us buyers would not either.
2) In the wild genetically weak fish would not survive through natural selection of the strongest over the weakest.
There is obsolutely nothing wrong in keeping these zebras but whoever is breeding and selling them should have culled these deformed fish before they got to any reasonable size, and they certainly shouldn't be selling them on! Irresponsible to produce and pass on any deformed fish IMO.
Regards
Tom
Those look like the fish I left behind when I picked out mine. If so, there are a couple of bulldogs AND I didn't want any more males. So I think most are all males...if not all of them. Might want to pass. If these are from the same breeder I got my "unique" female from, don't feel bad about missing out.
Cheers from Alberta.
Cheers from Alberta.
I posted my feelings on the subject of injuring the fry in the other thread Tom, you might want to read it. I do not personally think this is a genetic problem, although I do agree that the fish should not be sold on as "breeding quality" zebras. I had a heck of a time getting fry out of the caves, and I use a syringe full of water to push them out of the cave. At times I'm REALLY spraying them and they hang on very tight to try to not come loose. I think that while they are just finishing absorbing their yolk sacs, their little bones can't take the force against them.
I have absolutely no more scientific proof of that than you do that it's a genetic problem, but I DO have the fact that since I've changed how I remove the fry from the caves, I no longer have any deformed fish out of the exact same spawning group. If it was truly genetic, I would have, no?
Barbie
I have absolutely no more scientific proof of that than you do that it's a genetic problem, but I DO have the fact that since I've changed how I remove the fry from the caves, I no longer have any deformed fish out of the exact same spawning group. If it was truly genetic, I would have, no?
Barbie
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Snub-nose F1 Hypancistrus zebra
I have been brought into this discussion of the snub-nose F1 H. zebra through my association with a couple of the participants in this thread.
It is a fascinating debate and one that, in my opinion, is yet to be satisfactorily answered.
I first spawned H. zebra a few years ago and was so enthralled by the accomplishment that it was not for many months that I finally noticed the deformity we're discussing. It seemed to happen in one of every 7 or eight fish. No more, No less. I believed then and still believe that this is an environmental issue that either only occurs or is more likely to occur in the home aquarium...or, most precisely; not in the wild.
Do exporters cull the snub-nose before selling? I'd bet a year's salary that they do not. Considering what $ they get (got?) for our favorite fish, ANY zebra is a sellable zebra. I do not mean any discourtesy. It is really not their domain to cull anything but corpses.
DOES it happen in the wild? I do not know, but can say I have never seen it in a wild Hypancistrus of any species...and it DOES happen in other Hypancistrus species. I have young F1 H. inspector fry with "it".
I do not think it occurs because of any damage inflicted during the egg/fry removal process but do believe it happens (or not) during a very specific period of the egg/fry development. Those that get it (in varying degrees), get it early...or do they simply "have" it? If the latter is true, the argument for a genetic cause gets louder.
It happens in soft water as well as hard and as it happens early, it is probably not based on a dietary deficiency either, unless it is one that begins with and is passed through the female "Mother".
Theories abound. Nitrates, Nitrites, "additives", Flouride, and other chemistry issues lead the list of causes. My most recent experiments with lowering early growth tank temperatures proved inconclusive.
I promise, I am about to finish the longest message I've ever posted. First though I would like to applaude any and all who believe the breeding of these snub-nose fish is wrong. To breed this deformity would be tatamount to breeding the long-fin Ancistrus or the "Parrot" fish. The ultimate responsibility lies, as it always does, with the consumer. Buy this fish and you are as equally irresponsible as the seller, unless your purpose is to purchase the animal and, as one of the participants in this thread suggested; place it in a community tank as a single species specimen...or destroy it.
Keep the discussion alive, it is the only way we'll find an answer.
Those are my opinions,
I am often wrong.
Kevin Korotev
Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA
It is a fascinating debate and one that, in my opinion, is yet to be satisfactorily answered.
I first spawned H. zebra a few years ago and was so enthralled by the accomplishment that it was not for many months that I finally noticed the deformity we're discussing. It seemed to happen in one of every 7 or eight fish. No more, No less. I believed then and still believe that this is an environmental issue that either only occurs or is more likely to occur in the home aquarium...or, most precisely; not in the wild.
Do exporters cull the snub-nose before selling? I'd bet a year's salary that they do not. Considering what $ they get (got?) for our favorite fish, ANY zebra is a sellable zebra. I do not mean any discourtesy. It is really not their domain to cull anything but corpses.
DOES it happen in the wild? I do not know, but can say I have never seen it in a wild Hypancistrus of any species...and it DOES happen in other Hypancistrus species. I have young F1 H. inspector fry with "it".
I do not think it occurs because of any damage inflicted during the egg/fry removal process but do believe it happens (or not) during a very specific period of the egg/fry development. Those that get it (in varying degrees), get it early...or do they simply "have" it? If the latter is true, the argument for a genetic cause gets louder.
It happens in soft water as well as hard and as it happens early, it is probably not based on a dietary deficiency either, unless it is one that begins with and is passed through the female "Mother".
Theories abound. Nitrates, Nitrites, "additives", Flouride, and other chemistry issues lead the list of causes. My most recent experiments with lowering early growth tank temperatures proved inconclusive.
I promise, I am about to finish the longest message I've ever posted. First though I would like to applaude any and all who believe the breeding of these snub-nose fish is wrong. To breed this deformity would be tatamount to breeding the long-fin Ancistrus or the "Parrot" fish. The ultimate responsibility lies, as it always does, with the consumer. Buy this fish and you are as equally irresponsible as the seller, unless your purpose is to purchase the animal and, as one of the participants in this thread suggested; place it in a community tank as a single species specimen...or destroy it.
Keep the discussion alive, it is the only way we'll find an answer.
Those are my opinions,
I am often wrong.
Kevin Korotev
Milwaukee, Wisconsin USA
I don't think this is good enough for drawing a conclusion.Barbie wrote: I had a heck of a time getting fry out of the caves, and I use a syringe full of water to push them out of the cave. At times I'm REALLY spraying them and they hang on very tight to try to not come loose. I think that while they are just finishing absorbing their yolk sacs, their little bones can't take the force against them.
I have absolutely no more scientific proof of that than you do that it's a genetic problem, but I DO have the fact that since I've changed how I remove the fry from the caves, I no longer have any deformed fish out of the exact same spawning group. If it was truly genetic, I would have, no?
Barbie
If something happens twice with the same result, and then it doesn't happen if you change one parameter, then you got a hypothesis, and not a conclusion.
If it was a fact that damage inflicted by the breeder was the cause, it would assume that everybody else that got a bulldog face also did something that could potentially damage the fry. There's nothing that points to everybody having done this.
