sex these zebras please

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 2:36 pm

Hi

This really is a fascinating discussion!

The "bulldog" deformity seen in zebras is truely a strange one to me.

Whilst I appreciate your theory Barbie, as McEve said, you cannot draw conclusions. I'm not sure myself how using a jet of water to remove them from their save would cause such a pronounced defect? One test to find out would be to use this method again to see if the deformity occurs?

What points to a geneitc weakness in the zebra line is that this deformity is being seen throughout tank bred Zebras across the world. Yes you can argue this it could be something in the tank conditions causing the deformity but why would it be so selective? Surely the tank conditions would result in an entire batch of young displaying the same deformity?

At present there is just no way of knowing. We can't watch those who catch wild Zebras so have no way of telling if they are discarding deformed fish. We therefore cannot rule this out.

We do not know if it is the artificial tank conditions unless someone can perform a detailed scientific study.

I suppose the only conslusion that can be drawn at present is people with Zebras displaying this deformity should NOT sell them on!! If this bad practice continues, and the ban is turely in force we could end up with a VERY weak genetic line of Zebras, which totally flies in the face of why most people try to breed fish in the first place.

As have been said before though, keep the discussion going, JUST maybe someone might be able to hit on why this bulldog deformity is occuring.

Regards

Tom

Post by **Barbie** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:41 pm

IMO there is also nothing pointing at it being genetic, and this entire discussion is opinion at this point, but what the hey, I'll keep mine to myself now

Barbie

David · Post by **David** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:50 pm

Why would the discussion continue Tom, when you discount ALL the info coming from people with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with zebras?? Are you getting any of these deformities from YOUR tank raised spawns of zebras?? You seem to like to CHIME IN all the time and push forth your opinion as the only one that counts, when you also seem to have no actual personal experience with the fish...
David

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 5:58 pm

Ok Guys.........take adeep breath and keep that thought.!!!!!

I'm going to move this to a more suited location and title!!

Rob

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:00 pm

David wrote:Why would the discussion continue Tom, when you discount ALL the info coming from people with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with zebras??

uhmm.... he doesn't discount all the info coming from people with actual experience with Zebra's. I have experience with them too

I don't think we'll get any further with saying "well, if you don't listen to me, and aknowledge that I'm right, then I'm not discussing anymore" either.

I would think everybody would be interested in finding out what is causing this to happen, and if you look in the other thread you'll also find that some progress is being made. Discusion is the only way of finding out what's happening, and everybody is interested in that.... aren't we...?

I find your comment uncalled for David, Tom is entitled to his opinion as is everybody, as long as it's on subject. Don't you think?

David · Post by **David** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:11 pm

I stand by my original statement, and I don't think it was uncalled for at all...As Barbie said, "no one really KNOWS for sure what it is at this point"...To sit there and shoot down the opinions of people with actual experience with the fish is just garbage...Sorry you don't agree...David

Post by **Barbie** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:13 pm

McEve I was replying to the actual "I cannot draw conclusions" point in Tom's post. I'm not trying to draw conclusions, I'm trying to have an intelligent discussion about a problem I've personally encountered in fish that I've raised. I raised horses for a good number of years and did some very serious coursework in genetics. Wild fish that have not been trapped in a limited area with a small gene pool would not throw a problem like this regularly on the first outcross without it being something that was commonly seen from collection. That makes the problem environmental, IMO. It's all just opinion at this point, but I too took the tone of the last few posts as something I really don't want to be involved in more at this point. Hence, me offering to no longer post my opinion.

I do think everyone needs to take a deep breath and make an effort to see both sides of this issue though, personally.

Barbie

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:26 pm

I'm not sure why "you cannot draw comclusions" are so offenisve, but it might be because English is not my first language.

I see your point, as I bred pedigree cats for quite a few years, and had to look quite closely into genetics for this reason.

What might be happening here, is that all Zebra's might be carrying a recessive gene for a bulldog face, but then get naturally culled in nature if the fish gets this deformity. Maybe because the connection between the nostrils and the connection to the olfactory rosette (thanks for explaining that to me Adam

) is disrupted, and they therefor don't sense danger as they should, and get to escape in time.

If we do then breed the bulldogs, this gene will be reinforced, and we will end up with more fry with bull dog face.

How's that for a theory

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:32 pm

Ha ha

Great minds think alike Mc Eve check out the other post.

On that note.. This topic is gettin g duplicated, thus adding some confusion. Any posts concerning "Bulldog Fry" should now be posted here.

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... =2916#2916

McEve · Post by **McEve** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:34 pm

check the other post then Rob

Ok, from now on, http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... =2916#2916 it is

Tom2600 · Post by **Tom2600** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:00 pm

I am only replying to this for two reasons.

Firstly my apologies to Barbie if my terms offended you. It was certianly not my intention in the slightest!! When I said you cannot draw conclusions I was trying to draw reference to McEve's hypothesis/conclusion thoughts in relation to you having seen the bulldog feature when you have used water pressure to remove fry.

It is obvious we don't agree on this subject but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss it. Afterall, it would seem everyones discussion may have already solved one mystery. I hope you do not decide to leave the discussion Barbie, I will try to be more careful in how I phrase my posts from now one.

With regards to David I will keep this polite, brief but honest as your response to me was too direct and presumptuous for my liking.

As McEve rightly said, we are only discussing our opinions, and as Barbie rightly says this is all subjective with no evidence at all for any of our opininons. HOWEVER, when it comes to keeping Zebras I successfully kept a group of five from 1999 to 2004! These fish travelled with me from my Uni days studying my Biology degree to my current house. It was only a change in personal circumstances that I had to let them go. Two went to a good friend and the other three went to Zeberdy (who you will see on this board). I just wish I still had them now as I didn't think for one minute their price would go so high and an importation ban would be introduced!

It is a shame this discussion has turned sour but I have explained my post and this is the end of the matter from my point of view.

Regards

Tom

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:10 pm

Thanks for that Tom.. greatly appreciated.

It seems obvious that nobody intentionaly meant to offend anyone. We are all just quite hyped up about this post.

(Apart from my wife, who thinks I'm mad running down stairs every now and again with an update)

I must admit, this has been a very intriging post!!!

http://www.zebrapleco.com/forum/viewtop ... =2916#2916

Getting back to the original post... Hi David. I'm having trouble viewing the image in your first post, is it just me?

ta Rob