I think zebras are gay

We all know how difficult it is to identify the sex of these fish, so please post a picture in here and we'll try to help you (or at least give an educated guess!).
Prune Tracy
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I think zebras are gay

Post by Prune Tracy »

Now that I have everyone's attention. :shock:

I recently purchased a pair of zebras from a LFS. I looked them over in the store and was satisfied that they were of opposite sexes. Of course, the manager assured me that they were but we all know what that's worth. Recently I've redoubled my efforts to sex these cats and have been pouring over pics to do all I can. Now I have a very interesting situation.

Now, I'm not on my own computer right now so you'll have to wait for a picture but by their physical characteristics I am generally certain that they are both males, long odontons on pecs and gill plates, heads slightly larger than the body. That said, their behavior suggests that I am wrong. One of them has taken up a cave and spends all of his time either in that or under a semicircular ledge. I'd wager money that he is a he. The other however, hasn't taken any cave but only laid on some obsidian for nearly two weeks. With a recent addition to the tank it abandoned its haunt and has now found a crook in a peice of driftwood and has burrowed in. This new position is very close to the male's cave and yet in only 20G there has been absolutely no fighting.

I'll post a picture as soon as I can but for now my question is, should I be redoubling my efforts to block the passage of a state measure to ban gay marriage in our constitution? :?
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Post by Barbie »

As long as the one that's in the cave is the one that you thought was the male, you shouldn't be stressing yet, IMO. Just have patience, and good luck :)

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Post by Guest »

So these aren't the greatest of pictures. I'll have to figure out how to actually host a picture one of these days. Anyway, should I start pushing for civil unions or what?

http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/attachm ... tid=196986
This is the cave dweller. I'm pretty certain it is male.

http://www.myfishtank.net/forum/attachm ... tid=196985
This is the wild card. It looks male to me but it has been acting anything but.

I sized those pics in a hurry but there should be an enlarge icon in the lower right hand corner that will improve the quality. And the red was from they're trip. We've managed to replace that with blue. :wink:
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Post by Prune Tracy »

Oh, that was me...
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Post by Barbie »

They both look male, IMO. There will always be a subdominant male in a group that doesn't necessarily use caves. I've had a male pretty much flayed by the dominant male that decided he wanted his house. They are pretty serious when they want to boot them out of their residence. You might look for some more females to add to your group.

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Post by McEve »

They look like males to me too. For what it's worth.. I'm guessing you're from the states, so it shouldn't be too hard to find a female or two :)
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Post by Adam »

They both appear to be male to me, odontode growth is quite pronounced on the leading ray of the pectoral fins and the gill plates.Having said that it is not unusual for females to also sport a good odontode growth. Finnage and body shape also leans towards them both being male. The zebra that has taken up residence in the cave is displaying classic alpha male behaviour whilst the subservient one is generally trying to keep clear of him.
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Post by Guest »

Well, thanks for the confirmation fellas. I knew that they were males I suppose but I was wondering why there weren't any face offs in my twenty gallon tank. I guess they probably settled these issues back at the store. Would you believe that they were there for over four months. This is going to be a thorn in my side. When I bought these two I wanted a pair, not so much for breeding, but so they'd have another fish to interact with in a tank full of foreign fish. Purchasing these two pretty much broke the bank of Pete. If I buy anymore of these fish then I'm going to have to actively try to breed them to break even. On top of that, the likelihood of keeping three or four in a twenty gallon aquarium is zip to nil so it looks like I'll be having to make that species tank I was daydreaming about. Time to start hitting the thrifties.

Here's a new question. Is the subdominant male breeding stock or what? If I stuck two females in there are they just going to mob the alpha? If I go through all the effort of setting up a new species tank I'd like to simplify their care and spare my other fish from all that hot waterby keeping them together, and I really don't like dividers.
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Post by Prune Tracy »

Me again... :?
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Post by Barbie »

Fellas? *snort* :p

I would personally take back the one male if you intend to just keep them in a 20 gallon, or try to trade it for someone with a female. I kept a group of 6 on someone's recommdations and they never did anything, but spawned within a month of being moved into a tank with twice as much floor space.

You could also just keep them and enjoy them for the beautiful fish they are :)

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Post by McEve »

Anonymous wrote: Here's a new question. Is the subdominant male breeding stock or what? If I stuck two females in there are they just going to mob the alpha?
My experience is that only one male at the time will be the breeding male. I've heard reports from others that they have indeed had two males breeding in the same group, but in those cases the alpha male did what he could to sabotage, so it never worked out.

In my group I had one female that stayed in a cave with another male than the alpha for two days, nothing came out of it. She soon came to grips with where the right place to be was and spawned with the alpha male withing 24 hours.

So, from my limited experience, there will be only one male in a group you can call breeding stock :)
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Post by Rob »

Hi Prune Tracy

Yup, just to join the masses, you have a couple of good beefy males there. If there isn't any major agression towars one another you should be fine. If you can swap for a female, then that would probably be your best bet.

Otherwsie, as barbie states you could enjoy them for the fish they are..........but we know you want to breed them. :twisted:

I think youshould convince yourself and all others around you that you need a bigger tank!!! The you can try and get your hands on a couple females, let them both create seperate territories.

Mc Eve, must admit, I've experienced the same. I have never had two males rearing young in the same tank. The dominant male seems to remove the other males labido, or at least convince the females that he's the daddy!

Good Luck


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Post by Prune Tracy »

Barbie, you're right, I could just enjoy them for the beautiful fish that they are. Originally my plan was only to breed if they would breed without my involvement. My primary reasoning for having one male and one female was for the fish's sake. Life in a twenty gallon enclosure is bleak no matter how you cut it. Lord knows I wouldn't enjoy spending my entire life in my apartment. I believe that having a mate would definitely lessen the monotony. Beyond that, I'm led to believe that these fish are anti-social to other members of their species and I don't think keeping two males really has the fish's best interests at heart. Ultimately, I don't feel experienced enough to breed these fish either. I simply fell in love with them the first time I saw them and started my homework. Believe that I do appreciate them as they are. They're the least active fish in my tank and I spend the most time bending and crooking my neck to watch them. I just want them to be as happy as I can make them.

Rob, I have to blush and admit that you're right. I believe that if you own an endangered animal you have an obligation to help ensure its survival. Everyone here should be learning about threats to the fish's natural habitat and I like to think everyone here is. Beyond that, everyone who keeps these fish should try to breed them IMO. If a future in aquaria is the only future left for these fish then people really need to redouble their efforts. Yes I want to breed them, but I am not in a hurry.

As for the bigger tank, agreed. However, I did design the floorplan of the tank with pl*cos in mind. My tank is probably a little too much of a show tank but I built all kinds of shelves and deep caves with terracing and increased the floorspace by nearly 1/3. There were four hiding places, two of which are suitable for the zebras and the subdominant male has made a fifth. Strangely enough the two males seem to be sharing space in the middle of the tank, resting nearly six inches from each other.

My plans for the future involve a 55G species tank with black sand and obsidian caves. Keeping the zebras in a species tank will allow me to minimize the heat stress my other fish deal with as a consequence of living with them. Also this second tank would me to use an even stronger current and reduce the conductivity of their water as they're currently in a planted tank receiving fertalizer.
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Post by Barbie »

You'll find zebras really could care less about conductivity, IMO. I've kept them in pretty hard water with no problem. My tap water has recently become quite a bit softer (probably due to me buying an RO unit, I figure) and if they're in hard water, it will allow a bigger fluctuation when you start their rainy season and soften it. Good luck with them!

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Post by Prune Tracy »

Well good news. I visited seller today. I thought this was going to be a huge pain since we had nothing set in stone saying that I had purchased the fish under the one male one female assumption and when I expressed concerns that they may have both been male he was closed even to the idea. However, as soon as I told him today that they were both males he immediately took me at my word. When I offered to return one for a refund he refused. Instead he dictated, much to my pleasure, that he would go back to his breeder and purchase a female and we could trade straight across. So rather than leaving his store drained and with a bad attitude, as I had expected to, I bought 4oz of frozen brine shrimp.

Now comes the really hard part. After three plus weeks of caring for these two I'll have to decide on one to let go. I'm really quite taken with both of them. The alpha male is a brute (just watched him hammer the tank's largest snail for ten minutes for daring to enter his cave) and has already determined the breeding cave. The beta male I think is smarter. He has found a way to camoflague himself on a peice of obsidian but he isn't very active.

So here's a question. If I remove the alpha will the beta begin showing alpha traits, becoming more active and caving, or will he retain his submissive character in the absense of the alpha male?
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