Brazilian F1

If it's about fish in general, or it's a little bit random, then this is the place to post it.
Elaine
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Brazilian F1

Post by Elaine »

Thanks Jo,

No mention of having bred before. I think, only my personal view, that they are sexing by looks and behaviour in store. Very unlikely they will have knowledge of any previous spawns as it would appear they are shipped in,kept in bare tanks and shipped out.
As for being female, they said they were ' definite females ', but at approx 3'' isn't it easy to be mistaken ?

Really in a bit of a tiz here, head and heart conflict. Had a few sleepless nights too.

Nice home and dotting Mom awaits, but have had my fingers burnt once too often, thats why I asked for advice. It is a massive amount of money to spend on fish - think the decimal point would have to move before telling my better half ( LOL ).

Cheers
Elaine
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Post by DanD »

Just to throw this out there about the ban:

I've tried looking for documentation on this ban and all I can ever find is people on forums talking about it but nothing official.

There is a local guy near where I live who imports mostly cichlids but also some plecos. When I asked him if he knew anything about the ban he said that there was no ban and that zebras are in limited supply because they are all going to Japan where they pay much higher prices for them.

He could be completely wrong or making it up but he imports fish from SA regularly so I wouldn't be suprised if he was right.

-Dan
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Brazilian F1

Post by Elaine »

Thanks DanD,

That sounds like the same scenario we face with rare, wild caught discus. Most of them end up in Japan because they are willing to pay an absolute fortune for them. You need very good 'contacts' to stand any chance of getting them across here. This I do have a little experience with.

Quite possible!!

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Elaine
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John
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Re: Brazilian F1

Post by John »

posh bird wrote:Couldn't anyone with a wild caught breeding group claim to have Brazilian F1
young , or have I lost the plot completely ?
Yes, you could, since every wc zebra is from brasil no doubt about that :lol:

If however this means it is a tankbread from brasil, then it also is illegal to export this fish from brasil after the exportban.

In brasil it's illegal to catch, breed ,keep and export Zebra's (exceptions are made for scientific programs).

People out there that think "the ban" was made up to make money have to do a realitycheck: DATZ
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Post by smithrc »

All of our adults were sexed by everyone here and myself as males.... until the spawned... so I guess what I'm saying is that there is no way I'd pay that sort of money for 3" suspected females...

I'd much rather buy 5 or 6, 1.5" juviniles and wait a year or so.
(from a breeder on here you'd get them for £400 - £500)
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Hi again

Post by dave »

A post from Daniel Machado from days gone by.

Barbie,

Let's try to clear up some points...

Quote:
Is the person reselling these fish breaking the law. or is it the people exporting the fish? Is there a law against purchasing them at our end? I'm asking sincerely as I know for a fact another friend was offered some newly imported zebras again recently.

To be honest... NO. Brazilian law is not international. If your local laws say it's legal, it IS legal. But it remains WRONG, IMHO. That's the same as buying a robbed car that crosses the country borders... The buyer is not a criminal, but is buying the product of a crime and KNOWS IT.

Oh, the exporter IS breaking the law... At least the BRAZILIAN exporter. If the fishes are being re-exported, NO. No crime.

Quote:
While I realize that in a perfect world the solution would be to simply not purchase them, but I think everyone would attest to the fact that they'll have no problem selling them at some point down the line, it just might take a bit longer. Are the zebras best served by being in the hands of people less ethical?

That's a delicate point... I agree with you, but there's something more here. Aside from the few successful keepers/breeders, how many hobbyists REALLY know what to do and how to take care of these fishes? The worst part is that these people don't recognize their own limitation, and keep buying and buying fishes that keep dying and dying...

Well, looking to my words, I realize that I agree with you. Better for the fishes to be in the hands of a knowledgeable keeper/breeder than in a "fish-haver" with an already overcrowded community tank.

But I still think that if the fishes are smuggled, don't have a "nice" origin, it's WRONG to sell them, even if it's not a crime anymore. But it's up to the importers/sellers to stop it. Not to the hobbyists, especially when the only ones that would let these WC fishes pass by are the ones that can take proper care of them.

Best regards.

Daniel.

Back to top

Well Daniel has a lot more tact and diplomacy than I do, and in the above post the he states that the export of L46 is illegal and I have no reason to doubt his word, as many people on this forum know who he works for and will take his word.

The posting of incorrect information, not opinions is another matter, if people post what may be interpretd as factual without any basis this should be pointed out as what it is BS.

And finally legality in one Country does not transfer to another thank goodness, though respecting the Countries Laws when visiting does matter.

Take care

Dave
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Brazilian F1

Post by Elaine »

Hi,

I'd like to thank everyone for their input.

smithrc

I agree 100%. Was surprised they could claim 'definite females' at approx 3'' and with limited background knowledge.

The chance to introduce some 'new blood ' was what interested me in the first place . European bred, Brazilian F1 is a new one on me.
Still doesn't feel right though , so I think I will give it a miss.


Thanks again
Elaine
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zeb

Post by civicr »

intresting topic this.were abouts is this fish shop that have the zebs it would be intresting to go have a look for my self.?

elaine do you currenty own zebs?if your looking for new blood zeb breeders also swap zebs

ryan

ps hi guys i should get my net up and running over the weekend and will be back on the forum soon
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Brazilian FI

Post by Elaine »

Hi civicr,

The shop is not local, but is advertising in the Aquarist Classified . I have bought dry goods from them before and was well pleased. Can I name the shop here or not ?

I have 2 ( approx 7.5 cm ) at the moment and was looking to find some from a different source - hence the interest in the above. I read all the posts and hope will be able to post a success story of my own one day - well I can dream !!!!

Must apologize for my choice of words ' new blood '. I don't have breeders, simply looking for some adult Zebs from another source - SORRY !!!!!

Cheers
Elaine
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Post by Shimmy »

No need to apologise elaine, whenever you put. zebras, wild caught, brazil, money all in one sentence you are going to get a mix of reactions.

I enjoy hearing everyones opinions on this topic and I would like to think that everyone on here has the same common advice and goal for you. If it doesnt sound right or feel right the chances are it is not. Your gut feeling is the best instinct to go with.

People on here are very highly opinionated and get very irritated when the same questions and thoughts are continually raised. This IMO is a goog thing because I beleive that their hearts are in the right place and that is with the welfare of these fish.

On a contraversial issue when we talk about illegal and not illegal the one people who will get a definative answer is lawyers. The question should really be the ethical one.

I accept that this becomes difficult when the chance to purchase a fully grown fish that could potentially spawn at a hefty price is placed in front of us that this becomes tempting. But if our goal is to raise this fish, nurture it and then try to help them reproduce one thing every person on here will tell you is, it takes time and effort.

I would always try to purswade people to go down the route of buying young 12 month plus fry and ultimately you will be better in the pocket and the chances are more successful.

Hope this helps
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Post by McEve »

Barbie wrote:Please people, keep it friendly. Dave, your choice of words is yet again inflammatory and rude. If you'd like to make a point, please, do, but belittling the same people you're gifting with your presence is a sure way to receive a less than warm reception. It's basic social skills. If you don't want to post here, don't, but if you do, please keep in mind that you're a guest.
I'm not sure what is trying to be achieved by this refined words of yours Barbie, but I would think it does make most people feel uncomfortable.

I didn't find his post belittling, inflamatory or rude at all. As far as I know H. Zebra is not allowed to be exported at all.

Social skills involves more than bashing people into submission.
Barbie wrote:
Enough said on the topic of how to behave. Now back to our regular scheduled discussion ;).

I don't know that there actually IS a restriction on exporting F1 zebras from Brazil, if they can prove they're tank raised. That's something we'd need Daniel to weigh in on, I'd think. It wouldn't affect the wild population in the slightest.

Barbie
Nobody can prove that a fish is tank raised in Brasil, therefor there's a ban on export in general, as far as I know.
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Post by zeberdy »

McEve well said!!

I tend to look but rarely take part any more in this forum for some of the very issues raised by McEve. Everyone should have a right to put forward a view or information no matter what and not have to tip toe around in doing so :?
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Post by Barbie »

Zebras come from Brazil, as we all know, so technically all of us are raising F1's of Brazilian zebras, aren't we? Couldn't this all just be a miscommunication? I actually do know of zebras that have left Brazil legally under a permit for collection for research purposes. I've seen the fish with my own eyes. The fact that you don't know about it McEve doesn't make it less a fact.

I do realize that you are no longer a staff member, but you do remember the history that has transpired with Dave, I'm sure. Moderation is not always something anyone wants to do, but it still has to be done. I'm sorry to hear you still have issues with my direct method of communication, but again, is this the place to take up what's obviously a personal issue for you? Please, in the future, report a post that you have a problem with, instead of feeling free to bash me publicly. Then Rob can decide how he wants to handle things, as the owner of the board.

I have never had a problem personally with anyone expressing their opinion. I do have to deal with complaints from people that DO have a problem with the way those opinions are expressed. Discussion is great for the board. Arguments and insults are not. For a while, the board deteriorated to the point that Rob was so disgusted he was going to close it. It's really not too much to ask that people don't insult each other and behave the way they'd like to be treated, is it?

Barbie
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Post by zeberdy »

Barbie wrote:

I have never had a problem personally with anyone expressing their opinion. I do have to deal with complaints from people that DO have a problem with the way those opinions are expressed. Discussion is great for the board. Arguments and insults are not. For a while, the board deteriorated to the point that Rob was so disgusted he was going to close it. It's really not too much to ask that people don't insult each other and behave the way they'd like to be treated, is it?

Barbie
I still can not see where in any of Dave's posts on this topic he has insulted anyone. What I can see is he challenged an opinion and then supported it with a follow up. If that is insulting then I am sorry I just don't get it! I personally think this could be a very interesting debate but if everyone is so touchy that they can not take a challenge then what is the point of a forum at all?
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Post by TwoTankAmin »

As one of the folks in the middle of this all I would like to says a few things. First off, if one brings in a fish directly from Brazil, from where it is clearly illegal to export them, exactly how would you describe it?

The fish begins its journey breaking the law- in an illegal act. Now neither the USA nor the UK (as far as I know) has a law prohibiting the import of the fish. However, there is a difference, in my mind, between something being illegal to import and its being an illegal import. Had I thought the fish landed in the UK in violation of the laws there, I would have used the phrase: illegally imported. It may be splitting hairs, but illegal is an adjective while illegally is an adverb. There is a gramatical difference. Further, I referred to the export ban in juxtaposition to using the term illegal import. I thought that made it clear as to the meaning.

Somebody will have to explain to me how a fish begins its journey illegally, in clear violation of the country of origin's laws, but arrives at its destination without any taint of illegality. The fish became an illegal one the minute it left Brazil and nothing will undo that. Therefore I would describe it as an illegal import but would not say it was illegal to import or was illegally imported.

As far as I am concerned dave was not correcting BS, as he so politely described it, but rather he was head hunting me specifically because I have publically posted prior to this thread that I am tired of seeing his posts bashing this site and stating he would stay away only to see him return and do it again.

I like this place, and if others don't, then they don't have to come here. If you come and can't play nice, and if you also see fit not only to cast aspersions on the site but on me also, you had best be prepared for a response.
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